Starforce Petition!

[Tyler Durden]

starforce?

Never!

In france,starforce is already forbidden because it writes itself to deep into your system. A very wise decision.

RELOADED, keep fighting!

We will win!

[Joe Forster/STA]

Can you, please, give us a link to this French announcement (in English translation, of course)? Thanks!

[Tyler Durden]

I don't know if it is true,I've heard this rumour but found nothing on google.I keep on looking and will tell you guys if I find something.

[Chaindrive]

I have just sat and read from the start of this thread, to the last post (no military connotation indended!) and thought I'd ask a simple question...

Once Starforce is on your machine, how do you get rid of it again?

Six months ago I purchased some software to use in my work, here in Ukraine. Published by "Transnavi.com" the software is electronic maps of Ukraine and various Cities (Kiev, Lvov etc) and is supplied on CD.

When I installed the software I thought nothing of the need to restart my machine (before the program was installed) and just accepted it as a "rather odd" install routine.

As I use these maps quite frequently, I thought I would make a copy and use the copy when "out in the field" (I find potential projects for property investors) and keep the original safe at home. Nero did not report any problems when I copied the disk but (as you all know) the copy would not work as it was not an original disk.

I must admit that I was a bit peeved by this as I believed that I was legitimately allowed to make a single copy for my own purposes and so hunted around on the internet to find a "will-copy-anything-no-problem" program (think it was called "CLoneCD" but can't remember as dumped it later). I then proceeded to waste (another) half a dozen CDRs in a fruitless attempt to get a single copy that worked. Then I gave up with a "Fair play!" to the copy-protection writers!

I would like to make one thing clear, I was not trying to make a copy to save money! The price of these programs here is about $8 a throw - Legally purchased (and delivered to my home!) by the recommended retailer in Kiev! I should have just bought another original copy (and have done so since) but, having fallen at the first hurdle, it became a bit of a bone of contention, that I could not do what I believe I am legally allowed to do (especially living in an ex-Soviet country where everything used to be strictly controlled).

I then forgot all about it until I happened to spot something about Starforce Copy Protection being a virus/trojan/computer killer etc......

I remembered the "odd" install routine on the maps and checked the CD case. Sure enough, I found the Starforce Professional logo.

Before I go any further, I must say that I have not experienced any problems with my computer, nor have I noticed any unusual activity/lack of activity when accessing CD/DVD - based material. For all intents and purposes, there is nothing untoward going on inside my computer. For me, Starforce has not been a problem.

However, I CANNOT condone any activity that I see as an invasion of my privacy. If a company wants to employ technology like Starforce to protect their product (and let's face it, like it or not, it does it's job!!), then that is their affair BUT I WANT TO BE TOLD. I want to be told exactly what it will do and I want to be given the option of saying "No! I do not want your software installed on my machine."

As it stands, the installation does ask you if you want to proceed but, as has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, nothing is metioned about what Starforce actually gets up to once installed.

And that brings me right back to where I started....

Once it is on your machine, how do you get rid of it? (It ain't the money, it's the principal!)

And Finally...

Publishers want to protect their "investment".

Gamers want to be able to run their purchases from virtual drives, external drives, RAM drives (maybe not!) and, providing they are not breaking any Copyright Laws, it is their legal right to do so.

Hackers will always come up with some sort of "fix" to circumvent any form of protection ("If man can make it, man can break it!" Just ask the guys who worked at Bletchley Park!)

Are there a lot of people upset about Starforce - undoubtedly!

Will this thread make a blind bit of difference to Starforce - sadly, I doubt it!

Will people give up because of that - I sincerely hope not!!

As a very dear friend once said: "I do not believe in God, nor do I believe in The Devil but, if they were to exist, surely The Devil would have no greater weapon to hasten the ultimate destruction of mankind, than Religion."

Sorry this has been a bit of a ramble and mark me down as another "won't use Starforce again" voter!

[Tyler Durden]

Q: Once Starforce is on your machine, how do you get rid of it again?


A: Use StarForceClean

http://cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/cd_utils_8.shtml

@Chaindrive. Thank you for relaying your SF story. There is some progress being made. Here's a quick blurb from 'Game Overdrive':

"Our boycott is indeed working, as we are working with some of our associated publishers to fix this problem. We will have updates on this when we can verify what is occuring behind-the-scenes."

To read the rest see link: http://game-overdrive.com/site/modul...hp?storyid=735

Also. Another gaming site that is openly expressing their views about Starforce:
http://www.n-gage-help.com/
You may find this site helpful as the admin has a lot of experience with this and can help with problems you may have in regards to SF and your computer.

How many votes do I get? Well, here's another one. No Starforce!

[Grumpy]

@Chaindrive
Yes StarForceClean will remove Starforce from your system but keep in mind any Starforce protected programs wont run unless you install Starforce again.
So you need to make the choice? Either you want the program or you dont want starforce?

And yes, this one petition may not make that much difference but there are lots of these types of petitions on the net. Combined they may just make a difference?
And even if they dont make a difference it is still good to voice our opinions and experiences with Starforce.

and checked the CD case. Sure enough, I found the Starforce Professional logo.

I have not purchased a starforce protected game (program) for quite some time now but I have never seen that logo on any of the games I do have nor have I ever seen it on any games at the shop?
So you are indeed lucky you have seen it at all. It could be argued that you were told of Starforce being used, as there was a logo on the CD Case, but it could also be argued that not everyone knows what 'Starforce' is or means?
So just including a logo is not enough information being supplied to the user!

[Chaindrive]

Many thanks for the tips as to how to remove Starforce from my system.

Living in Ukraine, I am a GREAT believer in "people-power"! If enough of the sotware-buying public refuse to buy any product that has this protection system, then publishers may sit up and take notice.

However, for that to happen, you will need to make sure the "software-buying public" is educated (made aware of what is going on).

For that to happen you will need to get magazine publishers on-side (because that is where the next "must-have, must-buy" game will be written about), for them to publish the information.

That leads me to two points:

1) Has there been any proper, controlled, documented investigations done into the effects of Starforce on a computer system?

By that, I mean: Has anyone, for example, taken a brand new, clean machine into a Lab and, under supervised laboratory conditions installed the OS (and whatever other software is needed for the purposes of the test only), to prove the machine functions perfectly? After which, installed any Starforce protected product and run the tests again to show what effect it has on the system.

I know this sounds like a lot of hassle but it leads me to point 2:

The only way you will ever get any magazine publisher to print an article that could potentially put them out of business (remember who also pays their bills!) is to give them hard, documented, real, forensic evidence. No magazine Editor will risk the wrath of big software publishers, because a group of users (no matter how passionate they are) tell them a bit of software is damaging their machines.

However, if you can prove it to them, then (if nothing else) they have a moral obligation to report it. I do not know the legal apsect but I am guessing they may also have some sort of legal obligation... If you can prove Starforce is damaging people's machines, then surely it could leave them open to claims for damages if they knowingly advertise products that contain this protection system.....?

That's it! That's my sixpennyworth!

I wish you the very best in your endeavour, I hope it succeeds.

I'm off to grab a copy of StarforceClean.

Bye for now...

BTW: These are links to pics of Ukrainian software showing Starforce logo (sorry about the black smudge on the CD, it covers the serial number!)

http://www.blackrose.com.ua/starforce_cd.jpg
http://www.blackrose.com.ua/starforce_label.jpg

[DaRipper]

I think you should add Prince of Persia the Two Thrones in the list, I didn't find it there. I've been buying originals since 1997 and only originals. I've Always backed them up and never had any problems with any of them (my originals for C&C: Red Alert are still in their original case, thanks to back-up cds!!). Anyway, I bought a copy of POP3 online cause before you could lay your hands on an original here in Mauritius the game could have been outdated by more than 6 months and illegal copies outspreading in the wild!

The game arrived this week. I installed it ASAP, eager to find out what would happen in this last episode of POP, played the game once without problem, and then came back-up time! And for a sure thing, my once stable machine started to play tricks on me. Sometimes I had to reboot my machine only to GET INTO Windows, let alone use any application. And after the successful boot out of 3, it was more like a 'try and die' game I played to be able to use my PC.

POP3 was the first Starforce protected game I bought, and it will undoubtedly be the last!

Die StarForce, die!!

P.S: If it's not obvious enough, it a vote

P.P.S: we are an army of forks and spikes against swords and canons. But hey! That's how they won the French Revolution. So let's poke our forks into Starforce's belly

@Chaindrive

Apparently, there have been some efforts. As to their testing methods, I don't have a clue. There are two that I know of that have stated they've done lab-type testing:
Mark @ Sysinternals
http://www.sysinternals.com/Forum/fo...3&KW=starforce

13HourR @ N-Guage in the form of a challenge
http://www.n-gage-help.com/modules.p...ewtopic&t=5513

Also. Can I have your permission to submit the Starforce CD image to the Boycott Starforce site? Here is the site's url: http://www.glop.org/starforce/

It would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Thank you to Grumpy as well for this site and forum.

[jbMurdock]

nothing more to say...

[Chaindrive]

Originally Posted by midfingr

@Chaindrive

Apparently, there have been some efforts. As to their testing methods, I don't have a clue. There are two that I know of that have stated they've done lab-type testing:
Mark @ Sysinternals
http://www.sysinternals.com/Forum/fo...3&KW=starforce

13HourR @ N-Guage in the form of a challenge
http://www.n-gage-help.com/modules.p...ewtopic&t=5513

I've just sat and read those threads (well, it's -15 outside!!) and agree with pretty much all that is being said and it's also reminded me of something else - but more of that in a mo...

It seems there are a lot of people who have had bad experiences with Starforce, from slowing down drives to causing actual physical damage and 13HourR is absolutely right to issue his challenge.

Will Starforce take him up on it? I very much doubt it!

While publishers continue to buy their product, why should they? I am absolutely certain that publishers know what they are buying and if they were really worried about Starforce, how quickly do you think they would distance themselves from it (and the potential costs of fighting thousands of claims for damages!)?

As I have said before, like it or not, Starforce does what it is intended to do and until someone can come up with irrefutable, incontrovertible, independent forensic evidence that this product actually damages (or causes to be damaged) computer hardware, then they will continue to use it - and whatever derivatives it may spawn!

What about the publishers themselves? Has anyone got any contacts who can verify if they have done their own testing? If so, what were the results? Can we see them published anywhere?

Also. Can I have your permission to submit the Starforce CD image to the Boycott Starforce site? Here is the site's url: http://www.glop.org/starforce/

Certainly!

It would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

You're welcome.

As I was reading the above threads I remembered something that happened a few months back whilst I was using the Starforce protected software that I mentioned previously.

I had been using the program for a while (not sure how long, maybe 30 - 40 minutes) when the CDR/CDRW drive it was in started to make a very lound "grinding" noise. Needless to say I hit the "Eject" button asap but it wasn't until I had resorted to the old "paper clip in the hole" routine, that I persuaded the drive to give up the fight and open!

On checking the cd, I found that it had been very badly scored on the "read" side and has a furrow around (approx) 50% of its' circumference, about 3mm in from the outer edge. Needless to say, it can no longer be read and is now a coaster! Thankfully, the drive seems to have survived the onslaught and still functions.

Now, it could be absolutely nothing to do with Starforce and it was just unfortunate that the CD got "thrown" but this had never happened before (and I have to say, has not happened since) but it makes you wonder!

One final point before I grab a coffee and brave the cold....

I will always give my support when asked, if I believe in what I am being asked to support but, in order to give that support, I need to be sure that what I am suporting is right.

What I have read (in the main) has been informative, well thought-out, constructive criticism of a product that a) is installed without permission and b) is believed to damage the equipment on which it is installed. (I tend to regard statements such "them pi**ing in their pants", "taking over the world" and comments about "assassination attempts" by the British Government as being at best irrelevant and at worst, damaging to the credibility of the professional image you are trying to present.)

The only thing lacking is evidence - cold, hard evidence.

Get that and you've got yourself a case - and boy, what a case it would be!!

Without it, all you've got is a long hard slog - "pushing treacle (molasses) uphill"!!!

How much would it cost to buy a virgin system, plus software and to get it to an independent Laboratory for testing? (13HourR - maybe you can come up with the answer to that?)

Would it not be possible to arrange some sort of "donation link", where all those who are concerned enough could donate a small amount to pay for it? (The equipment could be given to charity when the testing is finished.)

Let's face it, if you are not buying "Starforce" games now, you should have a few spare coins making holes in your pockets! Put them to good use now because, sooner or later, someone with an awful lot more money and clout is going to say: "Put up or shut up!"

[wildwing]

ggr
i dont get
why to boycot games with sf?
i have 3 games what i bought and they was with sf3
that is scct/corsars 3(russian) and cmr05..
this games works fine,no sf errors or smth
...
looks like u want to boycot games with sf3 cuz U leech this CLONEs from ftp/torrrents ect..and u cant get this game to works ( i mean u cant run or smth so u cant play...)
sorry for my bad english

[Joe Forster/STA]

See my analogy with gene-manipulated food, in my earlier posts in this thread.

One test is no test. Ten tests are no test. Even a thousand tests are no test. A few million tests... now, we're talking about some kind of evidence! However, on the level of a few million tests Starforce was counter-proven. There's no point about more arguments or stupid contests from the developers. Case closed, period!

With my analogy, the manufacturing of gene-manipulated food is too cheap to stop only because a few ten people out of every million die because of eating it. Wow, talk about justification!

[Edit] Oh, and as for test systems, fuck the virgin ones. Whoops! I mean, systems used day by day are the ideal test systems. Such a low-level system, that Starforce is, has to be able to cope with unusual settings, drivers, components, whatever. Which is why it should be very careful about what it does. Which it isn't...

[Chaindrive]

Originally Posted by wildwing

ggr
i dont get
why to boycot games with sf?
i have 3 games what i bought and they was with sf3
that is scct/corsars 3(russian) and cmr05..
this games works fine,no sf errors or smth
...
looks like u want to boycot games with sf3 cuz U leech this CLONEs from ftp/torrrents ect..and u cant get this game to works ( i mean u cant run or smth so u cant play...)
sorry for my bad english

Hi Wildwing.

I think you've missed the point!

It is quite possible to download copies of many games that are protected by Starforce - copies that work perfectly and do not install undocumented software in the process!

Nobody wants to boycott Starforce because it stops you from playing a game but because of what it does "behind the scenes", without your permission to do so. Also because it reportedly opens the door for Trojans and other malicious code to attack your machine.

When you add that to the fact it prevents you from making a LEGAL backup copy of software you have LEGITIMATELY PURCHASED, then it makes for one nasty piece of coding.

I too have had no problems (so far as I am aware) with Starforce but, from here on in I will not have it anywhere near any of my machines - not until I know for sure what it does, or does not do.

THAT, my friend, is the whole point and to most of us that value the rights and liberties we have fought long and hard to gain, Starforce is a step too far towards restricting those rights and freedoms.

I don't know where you're from but I would guess it is somewhere East of Central Europe? If so, you (more than many of us) should know how precious the rights of freedom and self-determination are. Any step backwards from that position, no matter how seemingly insignificant, is a step too far!

'Nuff Sed!