Cry out to all you programmers out there

[[Philosopher]]

Hello everyone,

I've read several threads 'n stuff.
A lot of the problems we seem to have are based on not getting a good copy.
I resent the fact that no single program seems to be able to make a real 1 to 1 copy. Eventhough some programs come real close. (like older versions of clonecd)

for as far as my knowlegde reaches the problem we are being faced with is that every copy program tell the cdrom to get file x. What starforce en all other "protection" programs do is scatter files or create gaps. Our burning programs put the files together destroying the structure of the original cd.
This is seen by the "protection" and therefore seen as a copy.

I could be wrong on the technical part but I'm pretty sure I'm right about not getting a real 1:1 copy.

So my cry out to all you programmers out there.
Could you guys make a program that does make real 1:1 copy's?

And please don't start crying about legal terms.
I've had games destroyed because of broken/scratched cd's
Wich were legally bought.
I understand a real 1:1 copy is heaven for gamers and not so for developers.
But I think I have the right to make a perfectly working copy.

[Muji-FightR]

Our burning programs put the files together destroying the structure of the original cd.

If you mean Nero: YES.
If you mean Alcohol 120%, CloneCD 5, Blindwrite 5: NO.
They do 1:1 copys, not perfect,sure, but almost every copy protection can be bypassed by burning 1:1 or via using virtual drives (daemon)/cd-images...
(not talking about starforce 3 )

a real 1:1 copy is heaven for gamers

sure...like i said with ccd, alc & BW it's "close to heaven" ^.^

[DABhand]

You will never get a 1:1 copy ever, unless you have the master disc and a big replicator machine.

Other than that no, some characteristics of CD's and DVD's cannot be replicated by being burned.

[Joe Forster/STA]

Buy pirated copies from "warez factories" in China: they are making enough money on their business to buy such remastering and duplicator machines...

[XtremeX]

A lot of cds & DVDs have things burned that normal retail cd/DVD burners cant do. Also a DVD+/-R is not the same as a retail one so its not 100% possible

[Muji-FightR]

I just said it's possible to do a nearly 1:1 copy. Not every bit as the original but kind of close to it... A perfect 1:1 copy isn't possible even with a remastering machine or similar stuff except the original gold master...
But if you can burn SafeDisc to a normal CD and it works, it seems to be possible in a way... for sure not with securom which has got the infos needed to run the game at a place on the cd/dvd where no cd-writer could write anything...
but i also said that it's almost possible in every case to do this with a cd-image and rmps emulation or sth. like that. Or use Blindwrite, it emulates securom if you once installed the BW drivers, no need to run in the background...
So i didn't talk about "perfect copies" i just talked about getting close to it...

_______________

Sorry for the bad bad English, i'm not that good in speaking/writing that language, i'm a German... plz excuse me for this...

[bjornmmcc]

Here's a question that I've been wondering about for awhile: if one had the right kind of hardware (like CD manufacturing hardware) could you take an image of a disk and then press an exact duplicate (with all the peaks and valleys, pits, gooves, whatever in the exact same place)? I mean if you did this then no piece of software could tell the differeence, unless it was looking for changes at the molecular level.

[[Philosopher]]

Uhm.... it may sound stupid but bare with me, please.

Has anyone ever put a pc-cdrom into a audio cd player?
I did ! (by mistake, the reason why I now label my cd's )
My cd-player starts playing the cd but a I hear no sound.
Isn't the cd red ( hope I spelled that right) bit by bit?
So therefore shouldn't it be possible to burn that bit by bit?

By reading the comments I guess some of you really understand what goes on in every cdrom drive.

I also habe trouble understanding why I can't make that perfect 1:1?
Am I correct thinking the problem is software based ?

Is there some way to make the copy not digitally but analog ( )

Thank you fot thinking with me.

[Muji-FightR]

Has anyone ever put a pc-cdrom into a audio cd player?

I burned a audio-cd with by pc-burner and put it into my audio cd player (as you called it, i'd call it my stereo system), yes and as expected it worked fine...why shouldn't it?
Or do you mean data cd (for example mp3's on the cd) which you put into the audio player? of course it won't work if your audio system doesn't support mp3-cd's....

Isn't the cd red ( hope I spelled that right) bit by bit?

Yes, before a digital data is available the cd has to be read analogue (right way to write?) by the laser (light/laser is anlalogue, isn't it?)...

So therefore shouldn't it be possible to burn that bit by bit?

Yes it is, if you use a 1:1 copy (not really 1:1 but heading to it) it's written bit for bit. If you use a data program (couldn't find another name for it , you know: NERO and stuff) it "just" burns the data, not the sectors needed for running the game with a cd...
CloneCD, Alcohol 120,... read the cd sector for sector (bit for bit), which could be called a 1:1 copy...

Is there some way to make the copy not digitally but analog

In the end every cd is burned (written) analogue ("gaps and holes" on the cd).

Very complicated to explain it not in my mother tongue...

[Morglum007]

Well, lets clarify why many times a 1:1 copy isn't possible, and nearly 1:! too.

AUDIO CDs:

Well, thats the only thing can be copied perfectly today with compatible hardware. With compatible hardware i mean normal users drives, not replication machines (...) All that copy-prots are more or less based on those so called DRM Technology ( Digital Rights Management), and consists in a various session compilation, with cda audio tracks on second ( or latest) one. A car CD or a HI-FI will read CD as is, without reading TOC ( Table of Contents), so always will be reproducing original and clear AUDIO (first session). In the other hand, a PC drive will always read such TOC, and so then, will reproduce "fake" or low quality sound files in latest session, as it reads on its TOC). Aditionally, TOC may be corrupted ( CDS : Cactus Data Shield) in addition to previous thing.
Anyway, good positioning drives, with a lot of circuitry will always make a 1:1 copy with correct program. Plextor drives are known to be the better drives to get perfect AUDIO copies, no matter if CD is protected or not.

DVDs (for video purposes):

DVDs are today easily copied bypassing prots like ARCCOS or CSS (Content Scrambling System), with AnyDVD, DVDDecrypter or Smartripper. Anyway, 1:1 copy isn't possible, cause CSS key is in the PreGAP section of the disc. Such part isn't writable in blank DVDs, so u cannot write it even if u have extracted such key. ARCCOS system can be replicated 1:1, but main VOB video structures may get crashed, and therefore, it is better to try bypass it, not to copy it. Furthermore, it will last a lot of time, and isn't time available.

DATA disc:

Well, here u get the final stage of copyprots, where always everything is possible. Lets consider main factors: u have a drive and a lot of instruction can be sent to ur drive to check whatever u think. There is standard ways of accesing data on CDs, but if u follow it, then drives can copy it. The way drives are prepared to accomplish with standart, is the advertising they get of compatibility and user friendly drives, so then, standart ways cannot be the way a copy-prot will check a CD. Any drive could fake such in a burn, so then, they must access in a "non contemplated way". This is the way most copy prots work.
Safedisc:

Long ago based on unreadable sector, and now on such so called "weak sectors" is the nearest protection that can be copied 1:!. Time ago CloneCD/Alcohol 120% could replicate such sector by adding strange patterns, and emulating what Safedisc should check, but now, "weak" patterns are scrambled in a way the better EFM drive will not replicate. Now it is not a question of can or can't write weak sector ( not all the drives can afford it (only toshiba SD-r5002 and few Asus can burn almost every weal sector), and a DVD drive usually will NOT), it is a question of weak sequence. Cause this still is a mistery, then it can't be copied at all. The nearest u can get is by emulating. PreGAP checks have been added too, ands thats NOT "burnable" in blank discs.

SECUROM/Starforce/ProtectCD/Tages:

The advancest copy-prot systems available today. Based not in CD data, but in how data is in CD. This is not a question of pits or lands, thats for example, what should be on sector 234567, that isn't the same on original disc or burned ones (Tages), or how many time last drive reading from there to there ( no real data needed), that will obviosly be different on master disc or blank ones (SecuROM).
Even more, u can try to read how many sector are per disc spin, or per round (ProtectCD/Starforce).
Thats something conventional programs are not used to deal with. Special programs like Alcohol can emulate in a way, but thats all. If there isn't a way to burn such "data" onto disc, then think about. It can be done, of course, but game per game and with high hardware/windows knowledge, and most users haven't such idea. Creating such CD, in fact, will be an engineering project,and a unstable thing for most PCs, so think again about.
We have COPIERS at home, not REPLICATORS. It is not the same

I could extend myself a lot more, but i don't want to do so.

CdSTeam

[Grumpy]

@Morglum
G'day
Nice. I must say the 1:1 etc, was very well explained.

[bjornmmcc]

Nice description Morglum. My knowledge is now larger.

Are there then such things as replication machines? And if so and someone used one of those would you never have to worry about copy protection?

[doomerdgr8]

Morglum007, your explaination... it brought tears to my eyes...

I'm really proud of you! It makes perfect sense...

[Morglum007]

@bjormmcc:

Partially yes, but to obtain a good copy u will need to modify physical properties of master disc to required ones. Thats unavailable for most users. U should know what u are doing.
In the other way, will u have a machine as large as ur bed in ur room? (and thats the "mini-model") Will u convert ur room in a "dust-controlled" one sleeping with a nose mask?.
Another question: will u release 100 copies of a disc to "test" in ur copy is ok??

.........

CdSTeam