REQ: Stolen trainers to be removed from GCW

[jeremy_mccurdy]

Yeah, but there's instances where a CH trainer is only available as a promo version for literally months while other full featured releases are available within days of the games release, some of these apparently use some code from CH trainers, but are free and available long before CH releases the full free version of their trainers.

So in that instance, Kelsat's trainers are of higher quality for people that aren't paying members of CH.

[Joe Forster/STA]

However, if GCW supports people stealing from CheatHappens, CheatHappens won't support GCW and then GCW users will get less CheatHappens releases in the long run. That's what I was talking about as short-term vs. long-term solution.

[Caliber]

the people who pay for the trainers are the REASON THERE ARE TRAINERS AT ALL. we wouldn't be doing trainers for ALL GAMES FOR PC THAT ARE RELEASED (or about 99.9% of them) if we weren't supported by paying members. For some titles we have actually made a trainer for the retail, d2d, steam, and 'other' version (4 versions for one game!) for the same title. Nobody is going to buy 3 copies of a game and make a trainer for each copy and support those copies through all the patches and do it for free. good luck with that. THUSLY, you can thank the paying members for your 'free' kelsat trainers because without the paying members, our website would not be around, we would not be making trainers, and kelsat would not have trainers to copy, and therefore your base of trainers to choose from would be far less than it is now.

with that said, we are NOT the only trainer makers, and arguably there are many GREAT and BETTER coders out there and we mean no disrespect to those people who make original and quality trainers for games and DONT RIP other's work to do so-

however, the kelsat trainers you are getting are directly ripped from CH trainers, which were originally created for CH members.

it's nice to know, though, that warez people are at least being honest...

best,
Cal

[sheep]

hi guys.. been a while since ive been motivated enough to comment around here.. but i thought i would put my 2 pence in since ive been around a little while and seen the best and worst that the scene has to offer..

The phrase that is most prominant in this thread comes from our hungarian friend.. while his translation maybe correct the ACTUAL phrase used in the english language is "HONOR AMONGST THEIVES" his translation of the meaning though is perfect..

When your a member of something with an overtone of illegal or immoral questionability then to become balanced and to judge others you need a level playing field.. in other words.. you accept that there is a dividing line between them (corporate money men) and us (hobbyists, reversers, trainer makers) etc.. without the divide you cannot possibly judge others to your own standard.. stealing from your work place.. and stealing from your mothers home are both stealing.. but in your head.. you can easily see which one carries the more serious implications..

not to mention making trainers has absolutely fuck all to do with stealing code.. it has everything to do with the understanding, passion and amazing creativity of a reverse engineer.. the end result of a CRACK has 1 purpose only.. the final product of a good trainer can result in the game being played in a different and altogether new way.. this is not STEALING its UNLOCKING!!!

MAKING TRAINERS = CREATIVITY
TAKING CODE FROM OTHERS TRAINERS = STEALING

doesnt get any simpler really.

(btw, my flipant use of the word CRACK there in no way demeans or belittles the work involved in making them, creating a crack takes a lot more work and in many instances a much DEEPER knowledge than it takes to make most trainers.)

(of course this idiology is taken to its extreme) most trainers are piles of shit that just enable people with no skill to complete a game they enjoy playing.. which is why its laughable when you see people like kelsat deliberatly stealing code from people who do NOT steal anything themselves..

so now we come to WHO should create and uphold these level playing fields? normally its down to the honor of the individual that partakes in the scene in question.. but when this cannot be relied upon, ie.. when you get fucking lamers like kelsat and others, who have no shame and even less skill then i beleive its down to sites like GCW to stand up and govern the flow of traffic they are resposible for.. in the old days groups were dropped form sites all the time because of lame conduct.. this was enough to ensure a good steady scene with quality releases.. today there is no real scene to speak of.. but what we do have is a circle of well known public sites that need to take on a few of the roles of yesteryear scenes so that we can be assured of a good quality stream of site content and disallowing lamers to pollute this.

hye dab.. ltns.. thought i better say hello

erm.. just so people know.. my opinion of CH is pretty well known by now.. but my moral compass as a trainer maker wont allow a good trainer maker to be dragged through the mud.. in the last 5 years i would say there has been only 2 people that have either surprised or impressed me with their work on trainers.. and beleive me.. (with me being such a fucking ego maniac its hard to impress me) but none the less.. caliber from CH is not only a fucking nice guy.. he has done work on trainers that i would have written off pretty much everyone for.. i know this, because ive done the work involved in making the same trainers.. and when ive looked at his work he displays a full knoweldge of whats going on.. id LOVE!! to accuse him of stealing my work.. but the raw truth is.. he has rlsed many trainers with extremely difficult options before me and many others in the scene.. so its clear that this guy is the real deal.. infact i would say hes probably the most underated trainer maker in the last 10 years.. if he rlsed his trainers for free and CH didnt exist.. u would all be giving this guy the respect he deserves.. so in future.. dont pay attention to the red tape of HOW his work is released.. just look AT!!! his work.. credit the guy for fuck sake.. hes earned it..


so.. thats about it.. fuck off if u think spelling mistakes is a sign of intellect or education.. i could easily spell check the lot and still have u think im a clever bastard.. truth is i dont care enuff about any of u to worry what u think.. and only the truly elite feel that way hehehe.. just kiddin.. cant be arsed to spell check too tired.. too old.. too.. everything really..

end of the day.. if sites like GCW want to be respected by the people that feed them.. they need to at least pay attention and listen to that SOURCE.. and fucking trainer maker doesnt need a theif to produce work.. a theif DOES need a trainer maker.. i know who i would rather be backing.

eze guys.. laters.

[DABhand]

Well said Sheep and hey yourself

[DABhand]

Originally Posted by jeremy_mccurdy

I can understand a quality over quantity approach, but when a trainer is of a relatively similar quality of another one that would require people to pay, I don't see why hosting the free one should be considered bad practise.

Like caliber has said, if he didnt do trainers for CH what trainers would Kelsat be doing.

Exactly.. Most people dont get this idea. And they have been using warez that much they think everything is free.

So Caliber spends hours and hours on coding for a trainer, why not get paid for it, you get paid for doing your real life work right? You Do? If so let me know your boss's name and company and address and your name, then ill let him know you will be doing work for free but ill be paid instead....

Didnt think you would like that idea, but that is basically what Kelsat does.

[jeremy_mccurdy]

Originally Posted by DABhand

you get paid for doing your real life work right? You Do? If so let me know your boss's name and company and address and your name, then ill let him know you will be doing work for free but ill be paid instead....

Didnt think you would like that idea, but that is basically what Kelsat does.

I agree with most of what everyone here is saying aside from this little analogy. Kelsat isn't making money from his stealing code. It would be more like me working for possibly slightly less money than before, while you take some of the credit for that work.

Anyway, yeah I know that without Caliber's/CH's work, those who leech off them wouldn't have all the preliminary work done for them already, and probably wouldn't end up making trainers at all. I guess it just rubs me the wrong way that quality trainers were released gratis for years before CH came around, but that's just a personal opinion, and I can't really deny the quality of a CH fully featured trainer, or the fact that CH covers a ton of games.

[DABhand]

That was upto the trainer maker to release for free. It was not a rule that all trainers will be released for free.

For all great trainer makers its a challenge for some, finding options etc. If they choose to give their hours worth of work for free then good, if not then good. What kelsat does is neither a challenge or even that good, the analogy is actually correct.

For caliber it is, he is working to make money he is getting paid a wage, and someone else is taking the work he did and giving it out free, that in turn may ruin his position, his enthusiasm to stay in that position.

[Joe Forster/STA]

Originally Posted by PWizard

So, what's the verdict on this one? Has Empire looked at it? Will GCW continue to support stolen trainers?

We don't know: Empire hasn't replied to my question yet. (Toldya he's extremely busy!)

[...] By the way, such code theft happens on larger scales, too. Many serious companies have been caught using GPL-licensed material in their own, proprietary, non-GPL-licensed work. Unfortunately for the original authors, judges don't know shit about GPL and serious companies have serious lawyers to defend them so the outcome of such cases is not obvious. I hope that, in contrast, our one-man judge and executor will come upon a satisfying sentence.

[instant]

Hmm.

If I am not mistaken, the CH content that appears on GCW are the 1 MB large "PROMO" trainers with +1 option? Hardly a loss if you ask me.
Still, /wave to Chris and the others at CH and wish you stuck around on Avault


That said, stealing code and promoting it as your own is lame and should obviously be shunned. Selling it is even worse.

Having said that, I dont see what the big deal is - and dont see why you cant opensource your trainers so more people can learn the fun of making trainers and see how the pros are doing it.

/cheers

[DABhand]

Originally Posted by instant

Hmm.

If I am not mistaken, the CH content that appears on GCW are the 1 MB large "PROMO" trainers with +1 option? Hardly a loss if you ask me.
Still, /wave to Chris and the others at CH and wish you stuck around on Avault


That said, stealing code and promoting it as your own is lame and should obviously be shunned. Selling it is even worse.

Having said that, I dont see what the big deal is - and dont see why you cant opensource your trainers so more people can learn the fun of making trainers and see how the pros are doing it.

/cheers

Because he wants to run a business!

I have done ASM tuts which are in the coders section of this forum for a few years now, and some people have learned from it and grew from it. Others realise they are either..

1. too dumb

2. no patience

3. cannot grasp the basics of ASM

So they give up.

So for CH to release open source is not beneficial to anyone who doesnt want to learn, infact that statement is kind of silly.

[instant]

Just because you disagree with something does not make the statement silly.

It all depends on the quality of the tutorial and what skill level the reader has beforehand. I still believe that a reader who has access to both tutorials and a rich environment of source code will be able to more easily discover implementations and methods of doing trainers.

Have not read any tutorials on this forum, but from other forums I would say that some of them have been somewhat lacking for me to get a clear understanding of them... or written "hastily" so they are only usefull to a very limited number of people who have the patience to read Ghetto-speak or are already familiar with the material being discussed.

I am sure CH would still make money even if they opensourced their trainers. As they are the biggest and most organized cheat site on the internets, and most people will not code a trainer even if they are given the source. The only risk that could happen is that people who copy trainers and present them as their own work would have an easier job at it. But giving them the full source would perhaps give them enough information so they would be able to make their own trainers, or interest them in such.

Additionally, from other 'scenes' the objective has always to be FIRST (and sometimes with QUALITY). If someone copies a low option trainer and release it much later, what loss is there in terms of creds..

I'd think that anyone who is a user here are not downloading trainers from CH (because of the membership stuff) and CH users hardly visit GCW because it is part of another 'internet' (i.e. the non subscription based one...)

[TippeX]

sorry, cheat happens making their source code open source would be pointless.. simply for the factors dab mentioned.. most people read tutorials, think they can do everything and fall flat on their faces... laziness factor...

now, if you want to learn how to code trainers ,go do some research on asm code, win32 api and search the net, then play with your own code, if you've got problems then ask but by no means expect to be spoonfed...

Have not read any tutorials on this forum, but from other forums I would say that some of them have been somewhat lacking for me to get a clear understanding of them... or written "hastily" so they are only usefull to a very limited number of people who have the patience to read Ghetto-speak or are already familiar with the material being discussed.

your ignorance really has no boundaries does it...

[DABhand]

Originally Posted by instant

Just because you disagree with something does not make the statement silly.

It all depends on the quality of the tutorial and what skill level the reader has beforehand. I still believe that a reader who has access to both tutorials and a rich environment of source code will be able to more easily discover implementations and methods of doing trainers.

Have not read any tutorials on this forum, but from other forums I would say that some of them have been somewhat lacking for me to get a clear understanding of them... or written "hastily" so they are only usefull to a very limited number of people who have the patience to read Ghetto-speak or are already familiar with the material being discussed.

I am sure CH would still make money even if they opensourced their trainers. As they are the biggest and most organized cheat site on the internets, and most people will not code a trainer even if they are given the source. The only risk that could happen is that people who copy trainers and present them as their own work would have an easier job at it. But giving them the full source would perhaps give them enough information so they would be able to make their own trainers, or interest them in such.

Additionally, from other 'scenes' the objective has always to be FIRST (and sometimes with QUALITY). If someone copies a low option trainer and release it much later, what loss is there in terms of creds..

I'd think that anyone who is a user here are not downloading trainers from CH (because of the membership stuff) and CH users hardly visit GCW because it is part of another 'internet' (i.e. the non subscription based one...)

I just have to say a big NO to that.

If you cant follow some tutorials out there then you would never understand period.

It also depends of course on the level of the tutorial, only knowing a smattering (basic knowledge) of ASM and jumping into something like injecting your own DLL's etc then it will go way over your head.

Looking at source code will not help you understand the ideas or knowledge behind what your looking at, only how in lamens terms that particular source will work, so in a way your only learning in the region of 5-10% of what you should know to fully understand.

I can tell you GCW is talked alot at CH, people sending people here to get cracks for games and so forth, so im assuming quite a handful of CH paid customers actually may come here, perhaps not to the forum but to GCW anyway.

Anyways, In short, if you wanna learn what there is to learn, then Learn it dont as TippeX said be spoonfed the information as that will not learn you anything.

[Joe Forster/STA]

Originally Posted by instant

Just because you disagree with something does not make the statement silly.

Agreed. However, it's up to the author to decide under what license his or her software is released. As I wrote already, I'm also for free software, therefore my upcoming GNU-style utilities will also be released along with full source: I've had lots of struggles and lots of fun creating them and now I'm giving them back to the global community that I gleaned examples from. I have a job and I don't need to make money from my hobby programs. But, again, this was my choice.

Originally Posted by instant

I am sure CH would still make money even if they opensourced their trainers.

Also agreed. Free (as in "free beer") software is orthogonal to free (as in "free speech", aka open-source) software. Most users know shit about coding, they might not even be able to compile the published source.

Originally Posted by instant

Have not read any tutorials on this forum, but from other forums I would say that some of them have been somewhat lacking for me to get a clear understanding of them... or written "hastily" so they are only usefull to a very limited number of people who have the patience to read Ghetto-speak or are already familiar with the material being discussed.

Many programmers hate to write documentation or even comment their source, with the attitude "if you don't understand it yourself, you're no worth of making use of it anyway". This is, actually, sad as there are lots of people whose lack of talent is contrasted by a strong will to learn. Help them and they will also become good programmers - although not as flexible as truly talented ones -: you know, the "work horses" working under the supervision of someone with greater knowledge and freeing this boss of theirs from having to do simple jobs, ones that are "below" his talent. There's definitely a need for such people, too!