Beware of BioWare!

[nando2002]

I think it's more related to statistic than in user control/software limitations.
It's a must for every company try to keep their customers happy, what better way to know your customers than check in when they play.
How many times they log and how long they stay logged.
If many customers stop login for a long period after being logged almost every day (ABC Stats) they can give something to catch their atention again (more maps, mod kit, news, etc. ) and makes them play again often.

This option (Login Autentication) is marketing behind.
Take a look at Relic (Company of Heroes), when they see less people online they create a custom map competition 1 or 2 per year until they launch a new game. Simple but efficient.

In the other hand... they must provide a way to play the game without log in - case you want to play it in the middle of nowhere without net connection or the server are down.

[AstralWanderer]

Originally Posted by wolfsrain

That was the case for the first GalCiv indeed. For the second, I never had that problem. Neither for Sins of a the Solar Empire. But to get their patches, usually you have to get the game registered

According to this changelog, Dark Avatar requires activation ("Fixed error where invalid information was being returned by the activation code in Win98 and Windows ME by adding alternate code if the first instance failed.") - are you sure you didn't just miss it? As for SoaSE, Stardock is the publisher - it was developed by Ironclad.

Originally Posted by DABhand

Only would be worse if you didnt buy the game itself, or like to sell copies of your originals to friends.

Ah yes, the old "if you dont like it, you must be a warez d00d!" argument. Since that comment suggests that you've not considered this issue in any depth, allow me to present the following scenarios where online activation causes problems for legitimate users:

• Game requires activation but cannot connect (due to a fault with your connection, your ISP, the game company's ISP or a problem with their server). Result: you get locked out.
• Game has be to installed on an Internet connected computer - if you prefer to keep your gaming system offline (thereby reducing the need to run performance-sapping security software) then you can't use it, full stop.
• Users limited to dialup or mobile phone Internet access (where connections may be charged by the second) incur extra expense due to online activation - those lacking a permanent connection (e.g. living in mobile accommodation) can't activate at all.
• As noted in my post above (please take the time to read the links), online activation allows companies to impose usage restrictions that may be unfair or even unlawful. Stardock denying users their "first sale" rights is one example - Valve permabanning Steam accounts (causing customers to lose access to all previously purchased games) in cases where a credit card chargeback has been made is another.
• Privacy issues - a game that "phones home" frequently allows the publisher to keep track of your whereabouts. It also opens the possibility for it to send other information about you or your system (with or without your consent).
• Finally, what happens when companies stop activating? Just as publishers aren't going to release patches forever, they aren't going to continue to activate forever either (even if the process is simple, it still means support overheads for them). As such, unless a company chooses to release an activation-free version, you have a time-limited product.

[wolfsrain]

Then why don't use the same anger on the ATARI forums in the NWN section? Remember their premium modules? You pay a nice sum for all of them and end up with a product that it will be useless later on. And yes I've missed the 1.6 patch, as at the time when it was released I've had enough of GalCiv2.

[DABhand]

Originally Posted by AstralWanderer

Game requires activation but cannot connect (due to a fault with your connection, your ISP, the game company's ISP or a problem with their server). Result: you get locked out. - Any game that ive seen that requires activation online has usually got a phone option.

Game has be to installed on an Internet connected computer - if you prefer to keep your gaming system offline (thereby reducing the need to run performance-sapping security software) then you can't use it, full stop. - As said before for phone option , if none the box for the software would say "INTERNET CONNECTION REQUIRED"

Users limited to dialup or mobile phone Internet access (where connections may be charged by the second) incur extra expense due to online activation - those lacking a permanent connection (e.g. living in mobile accommodation) can't activate at all. - Errr how cant they activate, if they have access they can activate. And if not as said already they have a phone option

As noted in my post above (please take the time to read the links), online activation allows companies to impose usage restrictions that may be unfair or even unlawful. Stardock denying users their "first sale" rights is one example - Valve permabanning Steam accounts (causing customers to lose access to all previously purchased games) in cases where a credit card chargeback has been made is another. - Permabanning for what? Bot use? Trying to use a known key for another game? To get permanently banned requires the end user to have broken the EULA that you agreed to. As for denying your sale rights that is bollocks, you bought a product they have to make sure that you have access to the media if bought over the net in download form or send you media if ordered through the net. If it requires activation then it does, once done its done, if your legit then there is no worries what so ever

Privacy issues - a game that "phones home" frequently allows the publisher to keep track of your whereabouts. It also opens the possibility for it to send other information about you or your system (with or without your consent). -This is obviously talk you have read about and seen rumours about, if any game/software is taking information other than information about the game it is illegal for them to do so and they are monitored alot, they dont do it its an old tale used by warez users to excuse their thefts as if they are the good guys. Microsoft is the biggest scapegoat for this, they only retrieve information relevent to the service your using.

Finally, what happens when companies stop activating? Just as publishers aren't going to release patches forever, they aren't going to continue to activate forever either (even if the process is simple, it still means support overheads for them). As such, unless a company chooses to release an activation-free version, you have a time-limited product. - If they do fold/bankrupt etc then they have to supply a way for you to play your software in the future, by patch or by allowing people to have new media sent to them in various forms.

Answers inside quote

[wolfsrain]

Mass Effect uses SecuROM and requires an online activation for the first time that you play it. Each copy of Mass Effect comes with a CD Key which is used for this activation and for registration here at the BioWare Community. Mass Effect does not require the DVD to be in the drive in order to play, it is only for installation. After the first activation, SecuROM requires that it re-check with the server within ten days (in case the CD Key has become public/warez'd and gets banned). Just so that the 10 day thing doesn't become abrupt, SecuROM tries its first re-check with 5 days remaining in the 10 day window. If it can't contact the server before the 10 days are up, nothing bad happens and the game still runs. After 10 days a re-check is required before the game can run.

And that's the latest bright idea from EA. Do you remember Two Worlds or Bioshock? Their activation checks were removed in no time. The only hurt people were, you've guessed it, us, the people who actually paid for the game.

[acal3000]

Sorry I know You gonna hate but I have to agree with Online Activation is bad

I hate Online Activation too . It's worst than cd cheks and don't stop piracy either

I just see it like spyware. The game connect to the net automatically without user notification. And have also been cases when legitime users gte blocked by it

Also I have always hated Be On Line to play Offline (was one of the things i hated about HL2 some years back) , then years can pass game get old the publisher shutdown the activation server and get game get useless even for sp (like buying junk to be useless years later)

An people that download the game from torrent for example could not get access to patches etc, but get all copyprotection removed and won't have to to pass for all hassle legitime users have to pass and why people prefer the illegal way of doing thing coz the legal one is more difficult and should be the contrary

That was one of the reason I abandonned Windows XP/Vista and all that world and moved to Linux coz I got tired the big corporates like Micro$oft want to have the control of everything limiting what we can do and selling us commercial software in stores like if were trial versions. If people pay money for them deserve some control of it not all to the big corporates. All the the whole copyright laws are made to protect them from us but we as users don't have enough rights to protect us from them. People is paying for bought software NOT paying a rent for use it and then be cancelled for paranoids piracy warnings (that of course errors like these can happens very common on automated systems ) of just coz the publisher wanted cancel it. Like paying for a DATA CD/DVD full of nothing for users

And returning with these automated protection system I have seen errors like these toons of times even on bank proection systems. My mom have like lots of people an account bank she put his account to seeit on line and the protection and all padlokcs are way horrible. You type wrong you pass like after 3 tries you account get blocked ( but you think the block pass after some hours (like pther protection hack systems are) but hell no the account continue bloked you to call the damned tech line of the bank try you lik they ask you bunch or rare questions like what you favorite color, what you age, you son name as security question some lady or other people can just forget or fail thequestion try like mr criminal again re call they force you to send information data like ( your salary identification address and and junk again to prove you are yourself but heck you have make it from with some mail send to an employee from the bank that is occupied or don't make it much case you can't use even e your isp mail and the internet is supposed to avoid those long wats in banks etc but this horrible systems only make things more difficult for normal people where the thng my mo had to send the damned mail and like 3 times the bank emplpyee failed the damned support company mandatory request I suggest send that bank to hell. and retire her money but well she stayed there and thing made thing thtamaybe those damned suppotr idiot in the future wil want the fingerprint of the foots I said as joke but maybe will happen in the future While a real hacker can take down all that anti hack system and retire the money even more easy than the real account owner= and and M$ trying to say automated systems made completely obsolete manual ones (but NO an all aspects)

But returning to the talk

Also game companies always blame piracy for losing sales but don't mention other facts eithe that make loose sales: some games are a very bad quality why could not sell for that don't appeal the audience and since some years the the harcore game industry is decliving lots of people don't play so often anymore as the old atari arcade days. Most now seems to be on youtube or make another things. Also this newer thing about the trend of casual gamming is making harcore gamming losing sales and the pc market is most declived from all since several years (games on pc don't sells like 80's 90s used to) compared to console ones (or the console ones vs the same pc ported ones). Just look at big stores like Walmart/Sams or others the have very big section for consoles and very small one for pc games

So restrictives protections like on line activation only make things worst. Not All people in the world have geek patience to fix the game and make it work like most of us on this forums.i know the sys reqs of the game always to be checked before buy but a lot of people still don't do it (or are not familiarized with reqs in pc games or specially if play most on consoles and only buy a few pc games in their life) so will continue happens. Alao some game specification don't state clear if the activation is mandatory for SP of just for MP of get lost in the local language translation on certaion countries .Also I have known people in real life that have lazyness to update of defrag their hd or update thir antivirus so If they buy a game with this kind of intrusive thing it could very probable will get angry and won't spend even 2 days trying to make it work. If it's a parent who bought the game for his/her son won't want spend $30 or $40 to pay a technician to fix a game + technician generally don fix games Will probaly want to return it to store (NOT all stores in the world have a return policy) ,so they will probably put in their room, try to on sell of ebay or dumping somewhere and play a console game without all that on line activation junk or tech probs instead

[nando2002]

"Soryy I know You gonna hate but I have to agree with the Nando Guy and his anger in some point"
Me, anger?
where?
I just post about connection on-line and stats - where's the anger?

You must be referring "AstralWanderer" post.

[acal3000]

Yes you are right I edited my post

[wolfsrain]

Adding my own comments:
The big companies wnat their product to reach a larger categorie, but they always forget that the larger categories are what you call computer illiterates. They won't know if their PC meets the sysreq of the game that they've just bought due to some hype or aggressive marketing campaign. The hardcore gamer will always have their systems uptodate, will know where to look for their fixes, how to avoid sites that would give trouble to your PC and such. The casual gamer it's the one that considers Solitaire fun. Or games like the one published by companies like Big Fish Games, Reflexive Arcade and such. But those companies are very aware of the people who will buy their games. Companies that are selling casual games are aware that their customer are not computer geniuses or hardcore games. So their games are nice looking, working even on very old computers and not too hard to play.
Big companies are always talking about games reaching many people, but in the end they fail because they don't understand the casual gamer that they are trying to reach.
If you want to go on the casual games market, than you won't make multimillion budget title who is heavy on the system requirements. The casual gamer doesn't have the latest PC. Hell, you are lucky if he has a recent entry level model from a company like Dell or Gateway. So the big companies are failing to understand the very market that they are trying to reach. So their sales are taking a dump, and they think: it must be the goddamn pirates: let's enforce the copy protection. Well, no: treating your paying customers as potential criminals and making their life hard does not bring more sales indeed. And while I can agree with one activation and a later patch(after let's say two years, when the game gets old and the need for such measures it's gone) who would disable the activation, I can't agree with an online activation, staying online while playing single player games and having a recheck at avery 10 days. IF, I as a hardcore gamer and a pretty tolerant person I can accept a thing like online activation, I can't accept a combination like the one that EA wants to impose. If I've wanted a game that would require for me to stay online, I would play an MMO. End of story. Those being said, with regret I say, that I'll wait a few years until I'll buy games like Spore or Mass Effect. As any new protection, this one will have quite a few problems and sincerely I've had enough of playing the guinea pig for the gaming companies who are more concerned of implementing some new form of protection instead of repairing the bugs from thier games.
Now, that's my long post.

[nando2002]

Thanks acal

Now on topic:
I have friends without Internet connection: they say there are more important things in life to spend money than Internet. So Online-Activation-only games are a no go for them. But if the devs allows a way to check the DVD if no on-line connection is possible they buy and play the game.
Devs must give alternatives.

Removing the activation after a period of time won't help sells many more game since new games comes out almost every week.

[AstralWanderer]

Originally Posted by wolfsrain

Then why don't use the same anger on the ATARI forums in the NWN section? Remember their premium modules?

Given the careful attention and willingness to listen shown by Atari on their ToEE forum, I suspect you'd make more impact throwing a whoopee cushion at a Nolan Bushnell poster.

I've not purchased a NWN premium module myself (due solely to the activation) and did post in the Bioware forum about it (it seems that every 3rd or 4th thread in their Premium Module section is about activation problems!) but aside from praying for an early bankruptcy for Atari (so someone competent can take over the D&D licence), I'm sticking with the boycott.

I'm not angry, since online activation has (like Starforce) saved me money. However I do think it's important that gamers take the time to understand the problems inherent in any such DRM and be prepared to boycott games using it - it is only through lower sales (and public protest) that publishers will "get the message" as happened with Starforce. Otherwise they will ramp up the measures further (whatever they do won't "kill" piracy completely so they'll always keep escalating).

Originally Posted by DABhand

Answers inside quote

As an aside, please don't make a habit of this - it makes it harder for others to quote the relevant parts of your posts.

Originally Posted by DABhand

Any game that ive seen that requires activation online has usually got a phone option.

Please provide some examples where a publisher has given a phone number specifically for activation then (at best, all I've seen is an email option). The only example I know of is Microsoft's Windows Activation and I wouldn't consider that a game.

Originally Posted by DABhand

...if none the box for the software would say "INTERNET CONNECTION REQUIRED"

And how does this allow someone to activate if they wish to keep their gaming PC offline?

Originally Posted by DABhand

Errr how cant they activate, if they have access they can activate. And if not as said already they have a phone option

The point I was making is that there are people who don't have fixed line Internet access and never will due to either living/working in restricted areas (e.g. military barracks) or having to constantly be on the move (e.g. a mobile crane operator). At best, online access would be via a local library which would be totally useless for activation purposes. And with mobile phones, Internet access may be charged at extortionate rates (for example, the mobile network I am with charges about US$4/MB sent - a bargain compared to their previous US$10/MB rate).

Originally Posted by DABhand

Permabanning for what? Bot use?

The reason: "Credit charge chargeback" was stated 6 words before your reply. Reading a post before hitting Reply might help avoid missing the obvious...

Originally Posted by DABhand

This is obviously talk you have read about and seen rumours about, if any game/software is taking information other than information about the game it is illegal for them to do so and they are monitored alot

No, it isn't talk - it is a simple (and pretty darn obvious) observation. Publishers will log the IP address used for each activation (see Stardock's activation page linked above) and in many cases, geolocation can be used to provide an approximate physical address. If you have something that activates daily (as Windows Genuine Advantage did) on a laptop you carry with you, it should be pretty clear that this would provide a reasonable record of your whereabouts.

And it is not illegal for companies to collect data in most jurisdictions either. In many cases, they don't even need to make it clear in their EULA. And aside from technically minded customers, I very much doubt anyone is monitoring them - law enforcement in particular has far bigger things to worry about.

Originally Posted by DABhand

If they do fold/bankrupt etc then they have to supply a way for you to play your software in the future

And which land of legal milk and honey do you live in where such a provision exists? If a company goes bankrupt, their only obligation is to their creditors (and staff, depending on legislation). They have none to their customers - indeed, for USians, the beloved DMCA would likely prevent a developer from releasing an activation-removal patch since they would need the permission of the now-bankrupt publisher (who almost certainly couldn't give a fig about past customers).

Originally Posted by wolfsrain

Mass Effect uses SecuROM and requires an online activation for the first time that you play it.

That's discussed in some detail here. I was going to consider buying that but now I can forget it.

Originally Posted by acal3000

Also I have always hated Be On Line to play Offline (was one of the things i hated about HL2 some years back)

The thing here is games publishers couldn't care less whether you hate their systems or not unless it stops you buying their games. If you've purchased, then you're a happy customer as far as their balance sheets go and probably ripe for a little more squeezing next time. I've not bought HL2 myself and don't intend to - instead I focus on companies that provide games free of any activation or CD checks at all (recent examples being Space Emipres V from Malfador/Strategy First and Dominions 3 from IllWinter/Shrapnel). This is why I get annoyed about Stardock - they made a big deal about the lack of CD-checks on GalCiv2 and then brought in online activation. In my eyes that made it a "bait and switch".

[DABhand]

Originally Posted by AstralWanderer

As an aside, please don't make a habit of this - it makes it harder for others to quote the relevant parts of your posts.

I.e. More work for you?

Please provide some examples where a publisher has given a phone number specifically for activation then (at best, all I've seen is an email option). The only example I know of is Microsoft's Windows Activation and I wouldn't consider that a game.

Two Worlds. Earth 2160. To name a few. There is more out there.

And how does this allow someone to activate if they wish to keep their gaming PC offline?

Would be stupid of them to buy something that only requires an internet connection when they have none wouldn't it. Who is at fault there? The end user for not reading the warning on the box.

The point I was making is that there are people who don't have fixed line Internet access and never will due to either living/working in restricted areas (e.g. military barracks) or having to constantly be on the move (e.g. a mobile crane operator). At best, online access would be via a local library which would be totally useless for activation purposes. And with mobile phones, Internet access may be charged at extortionate rates (for example, the mobile network I am with charges about US$4/MB sent - a bargain compared to their previous US$10/MB rate).

Again not the fault of the developer/publisher. If someone buys a product that needs online authentication (if no phone option available which mostly there is) and they know they travel around the place. Nobody's fault but their own for buying it.

The reason: "Credit charge chargeback" was stated 6 words before your reply. Reading a post before hitting Reply might help avoid missing the obvious...No, it isn't talk - it is a simple (and pretty darn obvious) observation. Publishers will log the IP address used for each activation (see Stardock's activation page linked above) and in many cases, geolocation can be used to provide an approximate physical address. If you have something that activates daily (as Windows Genuine Advantage did) on a laptop you carry with you, it should be pretty clear that this would provide a reasonable record of your whereabouts.

And it is not illegal for companies to collect data in most jurisdictions either. In many cases, they don't even need to make it clear in their EULA. And aside from technically minded customers, I very much doubt anyone is monitoring them - law enforcement in particular has far bigger things to worry about.

Not all IP addy's are static just remember that. And the permabanning was mentioned by you, do NOT forget this. Now here is a legal matter, If say someone is banned but went out and bought another copy of a game to make a new account, they cannot ban this new account without good reason, and the reason of being banned before is not valid.

"Credit charge chargeback" what the feck is this? You trying to say banned because a Credit Card is invalid or something? Can you speak english please lol

Now you have proven you only know things you have heard and read about. But not read well.

It is illegal for any software to receive information via its software of anything other than the data attributed with the software.

Only time they can see your files on your PC is if your silly enough to share your HD on a P2P server.

And which land of legal milk and honey do you live in where such a provision exists? If a company goes bankrupt, their only obligation is to their creditors (and staff, depending on legislation). They have none to their customers - indeed, for USians, the beloved DMCA would likely prevent a developer from releasing an activation-removal patch since they would need the permission of the now-bankrupt publisher (who almost certainly couldn't give a fig about past customers).

Again your only talking about hearsay things you have read or heard others saying. Actually looking into this subject more may indeed reveal a wider prospective to the whole scenario.

You seem to forget that buy purchasing software, such as any that requires online activation or to be online to play full stop, once installed and you agree with the EULA you are in a contract with yourself and the publisher. If they are going bust they HAVE to give a way for the game to be usable after this event. Or else they would find themselves in hot, infact very hot water.

[Joe Forster/STA]

Originally Posted by DABhand

I.e. More work for you?

Yes. Use an answering style that is easy to read for everyone (not only "you", the other person in the discussion). See the Netiquette for general guidelines.

Originally Posted by DABhand

You seem to forget that buy purchasing software, such as any that requires online activation or to be online to play full stop, once installed and you agree with the EULA you are in a contract with yourself and the publisher.

And you seem to forget that, when the company goes down, that contract will become obsolete. Or is there an extra paragraph in the EULA saying that you may call the CEO in his house for technical support if the authentication servers go down for, let's say, an "unreasonable amount of time"? EULA's are especially known to disclaim all kinds of responsibility from the company!

[!HaGaR!]

And you seem to forget that, when the company goes down, that contract will become obsolete. Or is there an extra paragraph in the EULA saying that you may call the CEO in his house for technical support if the authentication servers go down for, let's say, an "unreasonable amount of time"? EULA's are especially known to disclaim all kinds of responsibility from the company!

Well, I see a need here to change the rules of the gcw. IF a company goes down or activation servers went down (is there any example yet?), cracks should be allowed which DOES circumvent online activation - because the activation is not possible anymore.

No piracy in these cases I think, because he company whos selling the software/game is no more...

Just 2 cents... And, in some way, the discussion here is obsolet. Talked about that a millions of time. Everyone hates the Biosshock protection. Very many people hate steam. Well, I also do. But, I am the owner of half life 2, bioshock and some others. Guess what? I hate myself for buying them, but I couldn´t resist playing them. If you can blame anyone for anything, than the fact that we couldn´t resist buying these titles. Period.

Well, tired and bad english... Above sentences may be awful. Thx for reading them anyway.

Good n8.

Edit: Sorry, somehow wrecked the qoute. Hope you may understand it anyway.

[Joe Forster/STA]

Originally Posted by !HaGaR!

Well, I see a need here to change the rules of the gcw. IF a company goes down or activation servers went down (is there any example yet?), cracks should be allowed which DOES circumvent online activation - because the activation is not possible anymore.

A good idea for the future.