Cd burner that can override copy protections - Page 2

gh0sth@cker · #16 03-08-2003, 03:13

Good summary, but you are leaving out some important features of the Plextor. Namely...

Gigarec - allows high capacity storage of up to 1 GB on a 700 MB disc. With this advanced feature, you can increase the maximum writing capacity up to 40%

Securec - offers password protection for your disc and other valuable data

These two features are unique to the Plextor and are very valubale things to have.

Now, a major boon you have left out (and you claim the two drives can handle protections equally), is that the Plextor Premium can now copy the latest Securom New 4.8 games when used with Blindwrite Suite. This can't be achieved by any other drive.

You say that Lite handles audio copy protections better - well Plextools (software that comes with the Plextor drive and will only work with Plextor drives) is well known to be excellent at handling audio copy protections.

So if you could throw them into your biased summary it would be much appreciated.

IceBreaker · #17 03-08-2003, 06:38

Quote:

Originally posted by gh0sth@cker
Good summary, but you are leaving out some important features of the Plextor. Namely...

Gigarec - allows high capacity storage of up to 1 GB on a 700 MB disc. With this advanced feature, you can increase the maximum writing capacity up to 40%

Securec - offers password protection for your disc and other valuable data

These two features are unique to the Plextor and are very valubale things to have.

Now, a major boon you have left out (and you claim the two drives can handle protections equally), is that the Plextor Premium can now copy the latest Securom New 4.8 games when used with Blindwrite Suite. This can't be achieved by any other drive.

You say that Lite handles audio copy protections better - well Plextools (software that comes with the Plextor drive and will only work with Plextor drives) is well known to be excellent at handling audio copy protections.

So if you could throw them into your biased summary it would be much appreciated.

"Biased" - so much for striving for an objective comparison. Well, accept my most sincere apologies for having my preferences AND being moneywise - had I only known this was wrong...

Anyways, many thanks for "completing" my summary - spares me some EXTRA typing

Biased, U say ?
Mais non, I'm standing up for Liteon "merely"

- because it's the cheapest of the two brand$ and never had that reputation of deliberately downgrading its firmware so as to prevent copying certain discs (cf. the Plextor-Macrovision alliance ?) - I bet you before long even Plextor Premium will have a firmware update which will prevent flashing back 2 previous versions AND will also prevent copying latest Safediscs.
- because it has never failed me so far - and god knows that unlike our US counterparts, we europeans have all the fun when it comes to copy-protections (Securom 4.84xxx, Ring Protech 2, Starforce 1/2, Phenoprotect, grrr

)
- because I own a Liteon myself

U may have misunderstood my statements, perhaps: I am NOT undermining Plextor. I'm just wondering whether despite its very honorable performance & features, it is really worth the extra zeroe$ on its price tag...

U C, I still have to find a copy-protected CD that can withstand my burner.

1) Securec-encrypted discs can only be read using Plextools! I don't know how complex Securec crypting is, but I you want to protect your data on a CD, you can always create a Rar or Ace archive - Rar encryption is very strong when the password length exceeds 7 caracters, and the method is just as complicated as using the Plextools/Securec combo...

2) Can even the Plextor handle even the latest Cactus Datashield 100 audio protections (these ones are the toughest) ???
With the latest firmware, my old 52246S pulls it off easily, and without the need for Plextools

3) According to you, only the PX Premium can copy the latest Securom 4.8 ?! Strange indeed, for if so how, just HOW do you explain that I was able to make 1:1 - yes, working 1:1 backups of Securom 4.83xx and 4.84yy-protected titles such as No One Lives Forever 2, Bloodrayne, Unreal 2003, Unreal Awakening, using Blindwrite + BWAbuilder. The backups run flawlessly in both my burner and my DVD reader - without any software, any emulation running in the background (Daemon Tools 'Securom-emulate', Alcohol 120 'RMPS emulation', CloneCD 'Hide CD-R option' or whatever). The game just recognizes these backups as the original CD

True enough, it is quite possible that during the burning process Blindwrite only simulates the density variations of the original CD-ROM. But if so, this is still enough to thwart the latest Securom 4.84 schemes. I don't know how Gigarec works, though you could check out this thread cdrlabs.com/reviews/index.php?reviewid=185&page=Features

One way to find out if the Premium can reproduce securom density variations on a CD-R would be by running BWAbuilder on a CD-R backup that was made by Blindwrite/BWAbuilder using the Premium and finding out if the resulting curve is identical to the original CD-ROM's reading, or instead just a normal parabolic curve.

All modern drives' chipsets allow reading of density variations on a CD-ROM. Hence, being able to write them would be just a question of having the proper firmware, not a modified chipset. If Plextor has taken the lead in this matter, it's but a question of time before other manufacturers fall in behind - and for a lower price at that, hehe...

IF IT CAN BE READ IT CAN BE BURNT

This leaves us with Gigarec's ability to squeeze in more data. Indeed this is impressive. One backdraw, though - cf. the aforementionned thread - reader compatibility is but only partial, especially when using Gigarec at 1.3, or at its full 1.4 potential, in all its glory..

Which leaves me wondering just which one of us is really being biased - perhaps we both are, mon ami

Quote:

If at first you don't succeed, blame the others

gh0sth@cker · #18 03-08-2003, 08:08

You did not make a 1:1 copy with the Lite-on, the density will be different if checked, and you would not be able to make a copy of that copy due to this.
If you read here you'll can read about the Premium's unique ability to copy Securom New 4.8

The belief that Plextor will release a f/w that will render the Premium useless against Safedisk and prevent downgrading is unsubstantiated.
There was only one incident which was similar to this - the Plextor 12X wrote perfect EFM bit patterns with original f/w then this ability disappeared in an update.
In all other drives this has not happened - and on that, it would be pointless giving the drives this ability in the first place in subsequent new drives.

Using WinRAR to protect your files on a cd is inconvienant to say the least - for example, having to copy files to HD before use, time to decompress etc etc along with other logistical problems.
Yes the Plextor can handle CDS100 - in addition, Plextor drives do have a far advanced audio circuitry allowing for better ripping which is nice.

I've just giving the other side of the coin, Plextor is well reknowned for quality products, and this reputation is well earned.
Lite-on substitutes quality to cut costs, this is evident by the fact that many of the drives can be upgraded to a faster drive via a simple firmware update as they use the same chipset.
Lite-on's are great for a cheap drive that will do it all (almost), but it is undoubtedly of lesser quality build than most other drives. The Plextor support is second to none - have a problem with your drive within two years of purchase and they will send you a brand new one on receipt of your old drive. Customer's often get a new drive within a matter of days, no quibble. I'm still using my Plextor 24X after burning over 10,000 disks at least.

au revoir

IceBreaker · #19 03-08-2003, 09:57

Quote:

Originally posted by gh0sth@cker
You did not make a 1:1 copy with the Lite-on, the density will be different if checked, and you would not be able to make a copy of that copy due to this.
If you read here you'll can read about the Premium's unique ability to copy Securom New 4.8

...

I've just giving the other side of the coin, Plextor is well reknowned for quality products, and this reputation is well earned.
Lite-on substitutes quality to cut costs, this is evident by the fact that many of the drives can be upgraded to a faster drive via a simple firmware update as they use the same chipset.
Lite-on's are great for a cheap drive that will do it all (almost), but it is undoubtedly of lesser quality build than most other drives. The Plextor support is second to none - have a problem with your drive within two years of purchase and they will send you a brand new one on receipt of your old drive. Customer's often get a new drive within a matter of days, no quibble. I'm still using my Plextor 24X after burning over 10,000 disks at least.

au revoir

Concerning customer service, I must say U ring true

: Although I maintain - and know - that Liteon hardware robustness & quality is beyond any criticism, I don't make much of Liteon customer service - in fact I've tried finding Liteon's address/phone number in Europe, just through simple curiosity, and to ask them info on their f/w - to no avail. Guess cheaper prices do have a "cost"...

As for correct EFM modulation, both the LTR 52246S and the Premium are 2-sheep burners but have failed the 3-sheep tests. I'm most impatient to see the results on the LTR 52327S with their new 7S chipset...

True enough, making a backup of my Liteon-made Securom New backup is impossible without including the BWA file made from the original CD-ROM. Indeed when running BWAbuilder on the backup, it returns a simple parabolic curve, meaning that the linear density on my CD-R is constant. This is why I always store my BWA files aside, should the need of a "meta-backup" arise.

It would be interresting to have a Premium-owner do the same experiment: a backup of a Premium-made backup, without using any other data source (the BWA file), ie. making a correct BWA file from the backup itself. If this works, then thumbs up for Plextor for this would give them a clear, though temporary headstart over their competitors...

According to you, this suggests that making density variations on a CD-R is possible. Fascinating, for that would mean that there is virtually no difference between CD-ROMs and CD-Rs, in the sense that what can be pressed on a CD-ROM can be burnt in 1:1 fashion on a CD-R...

And yet...yet... my results seem contradictory to say the least. True, my Litey does read but does NOT reproduce density variations on the CD-R (though as I said this is more of a firmware issue, not a chipset-related one). But then, how HOW HOW is it that the game recognizes my latest 4.84xxx backups as being the original CDs, whatever reader I use, and most importantly without any sort of program/emulator running in the background ???

In other words, how can density variation be "statically" emulated on a CD-R without being actually implemented, whilst still being able to circumvent the game's density check???
There just has to be an explanation to this...

If you or anyone else could shed some light on this mystery I would be most grateful, though I feel this will call on the knowledge & wisdom of a Master Jedi Engineer

Awaiting feedback

Quote:

Slow and steady loses face

emptyeighty · #20 03-08-2003, 10:43

Quote:

Originally posted by IceBreaker

It would be interresting to have a Premium-owner do the same experiment: a backup of a Premium-made backup, without using any other data source (the BWA file), ie. making a correct BWA file from the backup itself. If this works, then thumbs up for Plextor for this would give them a clear, though temporary headstart over their competitors...

According to this thread in another forum the BWA file made from a backup created using the latest Blindwrite and the Plex Premium matches exactly with the one created from an original SecuROM protected CD, except towards the end of the Medium.

Another person in that thread claims to have made the density variations visible with the naked eye by using a CD-R with a deep-blue Dye. If that is correct, density variations must truly be reproductable using this method.

Who would have thougt this could be possible?

IceBreaker · #21 03-08-2003, 11:07

Quote:

Originally posted by emptyeighty
According to this thread in another forum the BWA file made from a backup created using the latest Blindwrite and the Plex Premium matches exactly with the one created from an original SecuROM protected CD, except towards the end of the Medium.

Another person in that thread claims to have made the density variations visible with the naked eye by using a CD-R with a deep-blue Dye. If that is correct, density variations must truly be reproductable using this method.

Who would have thougt this could be possible?

Roger, "LeerAchtzig", checked out the thread, aber scheiße! Es ist in deutsch

I just read the beginning & from what I gather, VSO have optimized Blindwrite to fully utilize the Gigarec capabilities of the Premium to make "real" Securom clones, without any additionnal settings, provided Premium BIOS is updated. According to users, I quote: the backups are 'damn close' to the originals, like '99.99%' or something, but the Japs are planning to enhance Securom density-security. I'll return to this thread later, mit ein Wortbuch.

Still awaiting Xplanation as to how my Liteon backups can work in various drives without any emulation needed...

PS. I like your quote about the dying Shaolin monk. The msg has been trotted out countless times, but still holds true...

gh0sth@cker · #22 03-08-2003, 11:17

Quote:

Originally posted by IceBreaker Still awaiting Xplanation as to how my Liteon backups can work in various drives without any emulation needed...

If you read here it shows that when using the BWA no emulation is needed. If i remember it's to do with the Twinsector technique (Twinpeaks). But it invariably is not a 1:1 copy due to the linear density not being replicated.

IceBreaker · #23 03-08-2003, 11:34

Quote:

Originally posted by gh0sth@cker
If you read here it shows that when using the BWA no emulation is needed. If i remember it's to do with the Twinsector technique (Twinpeaks). But it invariably is not a 1:1 copy due to the linear density not being replicated.

OK thx 4 the info checked out the thread, indeed it is confirmed, when burning a BW image+BWA file (using Litey), no further emulation is needed. I wonder if Alcohol 120 with MDS file would works likewise, though...

As far as I remember, 'twin-sectors' has nothing to do with the Securom protection. Twin-sectors are used only by the Tagès scheme, which is a purely "software" protection involving modified subchannels. Like Securom, Tagès is difficult to read (but not for the same reason), if not impossible with standard software, however unlike Securom, it is extremely easy to write, as explained in this very interesting discussion

So mystery remains whole, for the thread U refered to doesn't explain how this works.

- No emulator whatsoever running in the background
- The CD-R backup has a constant linear density

Unless... unless Blindwrite writes twin-sectors (identical sectors, including Q subchannel) to trick the game into thinking that the "virtual density" being thus read on the backup corresponds to that of the original CD. So it's as though BW were actually writing a Tagès scheme on the disk! Hmm, that's clever

themis_t · #24 03-08-2003, 15:17

yack yack yack...chill out m8s..you r acting like maniacs,,like if you have just stopped the same cab and you both want to get in....!!!chill out...so plextors are in noway so much more expensive that liteons just because they have 2 or 3 more "features"!!there must be something...so after following all the go here and there links i finally came to a point which i think you will accept....Liteons are the best cheap solution and in many peoples opinion its a miracle that they are SO cheap!!plexes have a normal price for the things they offer there will be no big difference for a guy that only wants to copy some of his games because this guy won't bother reading all the solutions to bypass a certain copy protections so he will just download the crack for the game..things are pretty simple!aren't they?