Why online activation sucks

[AstralWanderer]

Not used GameJackal myself but anyone considering a purchase may wish to act soon. Slysoft's lifetime update policy ends on the 1st January 2009 with customers from then on needing to pay an annual fee to maintain access to updates.

They currently have a 20% discount (due to end on the 31st December).

SlySoft License Change Announcement
SlySoft Homepage

[TippeX]

hmm im in mixed minds if this constitutes as advertising to be honest...
its an ok program (as/when it works), bit clunky for my liking (dt is my main preference)

lets see what the other mods think

[AstralWanderer]

I'd go for Daemon Tools in an instant if the pro version didn't require online activation and the free version didn't include (mandatory) adware. However I'm now considering GJ for those cases where no crack is available (latest versions of Children of the Nile and NWN2 notably) - at least Slysoft's licensing system (a straightforward serial number) doesn't have much scope to go amiss.

[TippeX]

i wouldn't pick gamejackal as a 'better candidate' when no crack is available, they aren't exactly as quick as daemon tools are when it comes to updating

dt online activation i honestly never had a problem with, the lite version doesn't include mandatory adware (the free version has image making capabilities i think, so if its just for simple game playing, install lite)

[DABhand]

If your online whats the problem with online activation? You talked about this a few times, seems you dont like it.

But to be honest GJ = crap. And do you think GJ does not contact home when you enter your serial? There is a huge chance after you think you have activated the software, GJ may contact a home server to report.

[AstralWanderer]

Originally Posted by DABhand

If your online whats the problem with online activation? You talked about this a few times, seems you dont like it.

Online activation has two problems:

• if the company dies, the software goes with it (covered in more detail in this Authorization Servers article). I have no way of knowing how long Daemon Tools (or any other developer/publisher) is going to stay in business, but as a paying customer, I shouldn't need to.
• the company can change the rules on activation any time it wants and enforce them. They could levy extra payments (Stardock does this if it thinks a licence has been transferred), require you to install software (e.g. adware, an "anti-cheat scanner" to check your system for cracks or even the publisher's own electronic store software) or just arbitrarily terminate your licence (as EA were threatening to do to anyone banned in their forums - they withdrew this threat but the fact that they were in a position to make it should give anyone pause for thought). Even if DT's LocutusOfBorg is the most honest, upright person on the Internet, who can guarantee that a more ruthless, money-grabbing, EA-tattoo-touting miscreant can't take over sometime in future?

Originally Posted by DABhand

And do you think GJ does not contact home when you enter your serial? There is a huge chance after you think you have activated the software, GJ may contact a home server to report.

Easy enough for a firewall to detect - have you seen this happen? In addition, no requirement for an Internet connection is given in GJ's requirements - now that doesn't guarantee no-phone-home (plenty of other software has that "let's check for updates automatically" feature) but it would seem to rule against any type of compulsory activation.

Originally Posted by TippeX

dt online activation i honestly never had a problem with, the lite version doesn't include mandatory adware (the free version has image making capabilities i think, so if its just for simple game playing, install lite)

Thanks for the info but does that mean that the note about Daemon Tools on this page needs an update?

[TippeX]

Originally Posted by AstralWanderer

Thanks for the info but does that mean that the note about Daemon Tools on this page needs an update?

yep, think so, because i definately have daemon tools lite 4.30.2 on my x64 machine sptd versoin 1.56 and during install i could choose not to use the adware..

so, to recap (heres how i think it goes)

daemon tools lite -> optional adware, simple image mounting etc..
daemon tools pro standard and daemon tools pro advanced

the standard and advanced version offer a 20 day trial as well as the activation based license

[DABhand]

Originally Posted by AstralWanderer

Online activation has two problems:

• if the company dies, the software goes with it (covered in more detail in this Authorization Servers article). I have no way of knowing how long Daemon Tools (or any other developer/publisher) is going to stay in business, but as a paying customer, I shouldn't need to.
• the company can change the rules on activation any time it wants and enforce them. They could levy extra payments (Stardock does this if it thinks a licence has been transferred), require you to install software (e.g. adware, an "anti-cheat scanner" to check your system for cracks or even the publisher's own electronic store software) or just arbitrarily terminate your licence (as EA were threatening to do to anyone banned in their forums - they withdrew this threat but the fact that they were in a position to make it should give anyone pause for thought). Even if DT's LocutusOfBorg is the most honest, upright person on the Internet, who can guarantee that a more ruthless, money-grabbing, EA-tattoo-touting miscreant can't take over sometime in future?

Easy enough for a firewall to detect - have you seen this happen? In addition, no requirement for an Internet connection is given in GJ's requirements - now that doesn't guarantee no-phone-home (plenty of other software has that "let's check for updates automatically" feature) but it would seem to rule against any type of compulsory activation.

And they can give a patch to make sure you dont have to in the future. I mean lets not start this whole what if arguments, there is nothing wrong with online activations.

You know the amount of people who moaned about SF being too intrusive etc, now they moan about online activations which are not. Its rather simple and easy and most these days dont require media bar exception of one or two titles.

The stardock thing is totally irrelevant, its when ownership changes hands which when you agreed to when installing a specific game that it was for you only as was your account, and to swap ownership there would be a cost. So they just didnt invent a charge to charge everyone with.

As for the EA thing, that was one person from EA who went too far when they shouldnt have and EA explained why. So lets not use that argument either :P

So now EA is the big bad wolf? Why? Because they decided to make it harder for the warez users and do online activations, and limited installs are to stop installing games on numerous machines, and the installs can be regained by applying for them, its easy and painless.

[Joe Forster/STA]

DRM doesn't stop piracy. Read the articles linked.

[AstralWanderer]

Originally Posted by DABhand

And they can give a patch to make sure you dont have to in the future. I mean lets not start this whole what if arguments, there is nothing wrong with online activations.

This very point is covered in extensive detail in the Authorization Servers article - if a company goes bust, users have no guarantee of anything. And for a utility like Daemon Tools (which can affect a user's ability to run dozens of other games), being confident that it will continue to work 2, 5 or 10 years into the future is more important than with a single game.

Originally Posted by DABhand

You know the amount of people who moaned about SF being too intrusive etc, now they moan about online activations which are not. Its rather simple and easy and most these days dont require media bar exception of one or two titles.

And where is StarForce now? Largely dead and buried, due in no small part to the consumer boycott. Online activation may avoid the need for a media check (with some exceptions as you note) but you are then continually dependent on the developer/publisher continuing to support (ho ho) the game and not change their activation policy to disadvantage users further.

Originally Posted by DABhand

The stardock thing is totally irrelevant, its when ownership changes hands which when you agreed to when installing a specific game that it was for you only as was your account, and to swap ownership there would be a cost. So they just didnt invent a charge to charge everyone with.

They changed their conditions of use when they implemented that charge. Their online activation system means this change is enforced. It restricts your ability to sell (or buy) Stardock's products second-hand (which in some countries is considered a consumer right) and it raises the possibility of users being unfairly charged if Stardock make a mistake and think their software has been resold.

Originally Posted by DABhand

As for the EA thing, that was one person from EA who went too far when they shouldnt have and EA explained why.

It was a volunteer moderator of long standing in their forums. Do you consider it plausible (or even possible) that he would have made such a policy statement without clearing it with EA first? Someone senior at EA would have had to OK it and their ability (and willingness) to disable products that people had paid for is what should be of concern.

Originally Posted by DABhand

So now EA is the big bad wolf? Why?

Because their policies show contempt for their paying customers - leaving them with crippled products that are inferior to warez.

This isn't about stopping piracy - it's about extracting more money from legitimate purchasers (killing the second-hand market, forcing a move to digital distribution and controlled pricing, etc). The more people that accept such measures, the more effective this strategy will be (and the greater the likely costs long-term).

Originally Posted by DABhand

limited installs are to stop installing games on numerous machines, and the installs can be regained by applying for them, its easy and painless.

Except that there are several conditions that prevent people from being able to "reclaim" unused installations (hard disk failure, any snafu requiring a Windows re-install, network problems during the uninstall, etc).

The key thing for any "anti-piracy" measure is that paying customers should not have to worry about it. The problems with online activation, while different from media checks, have the same long-term impact of reducing the lifespan of software that should otherwise be usable for decades to come.

[Joe Forster/STA]

On a funny side note: read the first sentence at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistorik_2#Legacy. (Yes, it's true, I tested it a few minutes ago.)

[AstralWanderer]

Originally Posted by Joe Forster/STA

DRM doesn't stop piracy. Read the articles linked.

Good case in point:

Spore faces biggest pirate attack

Originally Posted by Joe Forster/STA

On a funny side note: read the first sentence at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistorik_2#Legacy. (Yes, it's true, I tested it a few minutes ago.)

Ah, it's good to see an Amstrad CPC user come out of the closet.

[TippeX]

this topics quickly devolved into the other one again..

drm exists because of piracy, there's no argument there.. the securom product activation (and other activation style drm) i've had 0 problems with, sure it requires an inet connection but most offer other methods..

as for the reliance on daemon tools etc in 2,5,10 years to run the games, thats quite a blinkered view.. remember when vista arrived and how many games had problems with it? the same will happen in 2,5,10 years when new operating systems are out... and even if daemon doesnt work, you should still have the originals...

lets stay on focus, the topic was about gamejackal changing their licensing system, not drm, not activation servers etc.. otherwise we'll go round and round and round in circles again

[Joe Forster/STA]

I think it's an interesting discussion. TippeX, if you agree, let's split the posts into two threads so that both can continue on-topic.

[TippeX]

i thought we covered it before, in some other thread, thats what i was meaning, and the discussion, while being fun and interesting usually always revolves round and round in circles over the same things, links, comments, 'what ifs' and so on, there's no real solution to the discussion, its the chicken and egg syndrome

but sure, lets continue it by all means, i forsee it becoming a stalemate though