Beware of BioWare!

[Machina]

"Hi everyone,

My name is Keehwan Her and I am the Atari producer for Mysteries of Westgate (MoW) among other D&D products. Most of you know that the release of Mysteries of Westgate has been delayed because of ongoing development of a new security system. Near the end of MoW’s development last year, we realized that the traditional protection of the .exe file would not work with it so we scrambled to find a reliable commercial method that would do the job. At the time, there was no solution that met our requirements. That is why, since the end of 2007, Atari has been working hard to develop a new security system that can be used not just for MoW but for all Atari products that need protection for data files without using the traditional route of wrapping the .exe file. Unfortunately, developing this system has taken longer than we anticipated and MoW’s release has suffered as a result, because it is the first product that will use this new system.

Atari has been working closely with Obsidian and Ossian to try to integrate the new system with NWN2 and MoW specifically. Although we wanted the security modifications to go out with Update 1.12, it simply was not ready in time so we unfortunately had no choice but to push it into Update 1.13.

I realize that many of you are anxious to get your hands on Mysteries of Westgate, and I know from firsthand experience that it is a fantastic adventure. MoW has been ready to ship for a while now and we are close to finalizing the new security system that will ensure that it has its proper day in the sun. In the meantime, we are working hard to keep cool information about the game coming.

Thank you,

-Keehwan"

[caki]

rofl

[Joe Forster/STA]

So the crackers will release a general software that removes the protection from the data files of Atari titles. (And, thus, make the game run faster...)

[acal3000]

He must be refering to this pile of crap

http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums...3831&forum=122

Activation systems the most idiotic thing M$ invented that don't stop really piracy but make only things more difficult to to legitime users

And NWN2 was way horrible compared with NWN1

[wolfsrain]

I loved what Stardock did. No invasive protection, no activation, just a serial number and a game registration for support access(patches, bonus content). I have the Galactic Civilizations series from them, very happy with the way they handled things.
And one thing that I really don't understand. Bioware belongs to EA now, so why the hell Ossian it's present on the Bioware forums and not on the ATARI forums, because NWN2 it's an ATARI product. Also NWN2 was developped mostly by Obsidian which is pretty much an independent game studio at the moment. Why not use Obsidian's forums??? If I would be a bigwig at EA I would stop access at the forums for the other publishers/developpers.

[DABhand]

Thats why your not a bigwig at EA :P hehehe

[Pigdog Ratsnake]

EA is going to kick Atari in the **** for this. Or maybe EA will just buy Atari and make Atari's board of directors into street prostitutes.

Besides that, if you are familiar with anything Atari has done -- the modern fake Atari, not the good old Atari -- then you know that their copy protection system is going to be a comedy laugh riot, fun for the whole family and full of bugs. Atari develop something? They can't even patch most of their games! And we are supposed to be surprised that it has been "delayed"? Bwahhahahaa. Yeah, take a guess why it's been delayed. Atari doesn't have any real programmers, it hired Devry University dropouts who only know how to "code" in HTML.

[AstralWanderer]

Originally Posted by wolfsrain

I loved what Stardock did. No invasive protection, no activation,

Excuse me? Are you talking about THIS Stardock? Who made a big deal about GalCiv not including any CD checks but then slipped in online authentication on later patches?

Online authentication is, IMHO, far worse than CD checks since it gives the publisher the ability to arbitrarily terminate your usage of their software. Now Stardock's online activation may be less oppressive than most (and certainly better than Bioware's NWN Premium Modules though Atari is apparently the real culprit there) but they have made it clear that they will deny users the right to resell their software (see point 3 of their Activation FAQ).

In my case, it took 3 weeks (and 4 attempts by Stardock support) before I received a valid key for a game I purchased legitimately (I now use a crack from GCW to avoid having to repeat this process). The one silver lining was that I found this applied to their other products, resulting in me boycotting them completely (saving the cost of an Object Desktop renewal and GalCiv expansion packs).

[DABhand]

Originally Posted by AstralWanderer

Online authentication is, IMHO, far worse than CD checks since it gives the publisher the ability to arbitrarily terminate your usage of their software.

Only would be worse if you didnt buy the game itself, or like to sell copies of your originals to friends.

So one would believe you dont like this method because you adopt one of the 2 things I mentioned.

[AstralWanderer]

Originally Posted by wolfsrain

That was the case for the first GalCiv indeed. For the second, I never had that problem. Neither for Sins of a the Solar Empire. But to get their patches, usually you have to get the game registered

According to this changelog, Dark Avatar requires activation ("Fixed error where invalid information was being returned by the activation code in Win98 and Windows ME by adding alternate code if the first instance failed.") - are you sure you didn't just miss it? As for SoaSE, Stardock is the publisher - it was developed by Ironclad.

Originally Posted by DABhand

Only would be worse if you didnt buy the game itself, or like to sell copies of your originals to friends.

Ah yes, the old "if you dont like it, you must be a warez d00d!" argument. Since that comment suggests that you've not considered this issue in any depth, allow me to present the following scenarios where online activation causes problems for legitimate users:

• Game requires activation but cannot connect (due to a fault with your connection, your ISP, the game company's ISP or a problem with their server). Result: you get locked out.
• Game has be to installed on an Internet connected computer - if you prefer to keep your gaming system offline (thereby reducing the need to run performance-sapping security software) then you can't use it, full stop.
• Users limited to dialup or mobile phone Internet access (where connections may be charged by the second) incur extra expense due to online activation - those lacking a permanent connection (e.g. living in mobile accommodation) can't activate at all.
• As noted in my post above (please take the time to read the links), online activation allows companies to impose usage restrictions that may be unfair or even unlawful. Stardock denying users their "first sale" rights is one example - Valve permabanning Steam accounts (causing customers to lose access to all previously purchased games) in cases where a credit card chargeback has been made is another.
• Privacy issues - a game that "phones home" frequently allows the publisher to keep track of your whereabouts. It also opens the possibility for it to send other information about you or your system (with or without your consent).
• Finally, what happens when companies stop activating? Just as publishers aren't going to release patches forever, they aren't going to continue to activate forever either (even if the process is simple, it still means support overheads for them). As such, unless a company chooses to release an activation-free version, you have a time-limited product.

[DABhand]

Originally Posted by AstralWanderer

Game requires activation but cannot connect (due to a fault with your connection, your ISP, the game company's ISP or a problem with their server). Result: you get locked out. - Any game that ive seen that requires activation online has usually got a phone option.

Game has be to installed on an Internet connected computer - if you prefer to keep your gaming system offline (thereby reducing the need to run performance-sapping security software) then you can't use it, full stop. - As said before for phone option , if none the box for the software would say "INTERNET CONNECTION REQUIRED"

Users limited to dialup or mobile phone Internet access (where connections may be charged by the second) incur extra expense due to online activation - those lacking a permanent connection (e.g. living in mobile accommodation) can't activate at all. - Errr how cant they activate, if they have access they can activate. And if not as said already they have a phone option

As noted in my post above (please take the time to read the links), online activation allows companies to impose usage restrictions that may be unfair or even unlawful. Stardock denying users their "first sale" rights is one example - Valve permabanning Steam accounts (causing customers to lose access to all previously purchased games) in cases where a credit card chargeback has been made is another. - Permabanning for what? Bot use? Trying to use a known key for another game? To get permanently banned requires the end user to have broken the EULA that you agreed to. As for denying your sale rights that is bollocks, you bought a product they have to make sure that you have access to the media if bought over the net in download form or send you media if ordered through the net. If it requires activation then it does, once done its done, if your legit then there is no worries what so ever

Privacy issues - a game that "phones home" frequently allows the publisher to keep track of your whereabouts. It also opens the possibility for it to send other information about you or your system (with or without your consent). -This is obviously talk you have read about and seen rumours about, if any game/software is taking information other than information about the game it is illegal for them to do so and they are monitored alot, they dont do it its an old tale used by warez users to excuse their thefts as if they are the good guys. Microsoft is the biggest scapegoat for this, they only retrieve information relevent to the service your using.

Finally, what happens when companies stop activating? Just as publishers aren't going to release patches forever, they aren't going to continue to activate forever either (even if the process is simple, it still means support overheads for them). As such, unless a company chooses to release an activation-free version, you have a time-limited product. - If they do fold/bankrupt etc then they have to supply a way for you to play your software in the future, by patch or by allowing people to have new media sent to them in various forms.

Answers inside quote

[Luciel]

I haven´t had any issues with object desktop, galciv2 or sins of a solar empire : / pretty straightforward, maybe you were just unlucky?

Oh and about before, i wouldn´t add Sierra to your list... It´s being dismantled.

[AstralWanderer]

Since passions seemed to be running high in this thread (including mine, apologies to anyone offended!) I thought it best to take a break. However there have been some interesting follow ups.

First, a thoughtful discussion at Twenty-Sided on Authorization Servers pointing out the problems inherent with online activation when the publisher goes offline. Another related discussion at Bit-Tech includes contact information for Bioware/EA (for those wishing to complain directly) and a mention of this Online Petition for removing DRM from Mass Effect and Spore.

Two more points about online activation are worth noting - the first is that it allows the publisher to change the rules. Instead of a periodic connection they could instead require you to run a separate "validation" program (think Windows Genuine Advantage) that scans your system for anything suspicious (this could include cracks, software without a recognised legitimate key or even certain security software). They could choose to relax or tighten the activation criteria (e.g. lock it to one IP address). They could charge users extra for further activations as Stardock do with resold software - see their Knowledgebase Article (site down at time of posting) and forum discussion thread. A publisher could even try to "monetise" activation of older games (with nothing to lose from sales boycotts) by tying them in with adware or other marketing. This isn't unique to games though - any activation system (e.g. ITunes, PlaysForSure) gives distributors a similar ability to unilaterally change the conditions of use and enforce them.

The second is that there is no reason to expect it to cut piracy (activation code is unlikely to be harder to remove than CD checks) so the only benefit is if legitimate users can be made to pay more. Stardock's policy on resold software is a good indicator here - if publishers can kill off (or at least profit from) second-hand sales, then that may justify this type of DRM in their eyes (from the balance sheet perspective, a legal second-hand buyer is no different from a pirate). However it also could prepare the way for the Holy Grail of many software publishers - games rental. No longer would you be able to buy a game, but would have to pay a monthly fee regardless of whether the publisher did anything to earn it. While some might argue that this would allow for continued support and updates, an equally likely scenario is of older games being treated as cash cows with users fed on hollow promises (Microsoft's Software Assurance program being one such example).

Originally Posted by Luciel

I haven´t had any issues with object desktop, galciv2 or sins of a solar empire : / pretty straightforward, maybe you were just unlucky?

There have been a number of "activation problem" threads on Stardock's own forums so the process isn't (and can't really be expected to be) error free. In my case, it took three weeks (and four attempts by Stardock support) to get a working key for GalCiv2 (I downloaded the crack from GCW since to avoid any recurrence). Even if things work swimmingly to start with though, the main concern should be about the future - the company can change the rules as they please.

While Stardock's system may be lighter than most (check only on install, key can be retained for future use on the same machine) it is the lack of transparency that irritates me most. This requirement was not made clear when GalCiv2 was launched, no mention of it is made in the packaging or manual and no details have been given about what Stardock considers a "different machine". Would changing a processor, hard disk or network card require subsequent reactivation? Are a certain number of changes allowed in a specific time frame and if so, how many and when?

Microsoft have made such details available on Windows XP activation (a detailed description is given here) but it is ultimately self-defeating for publishers to expect legitimate customers to pay to deal with this while pirates continue to get away scot free.

[nando2002]

Mind your language - you don't need to insult others just because you don't like them.

Atari was the creator of many consoles like 2600, 5200, etc and many games - good old days
Atari after the disaster years ago with the Tetris game - Nintendo wins the battle against Atari in the Tetris game - the company change a lot. Nowadays they are a publisher - just like Blizzard is coming to be and others will follow - and so they don't need to create game but to distribute them. The bugs are not related to them but the devs companies Atari supports. If Atari or other publisher don't support devs companies (paying them to produce games) you don't play games.
What Atari is trying to do is just what JoWood did/does: create a custom protection system to protect their investment.

[wolfsrain]

I don't remember Jowood doing an invasive copyprotection. Today's Atari it's not Atari anymore. And from this fall it will be completely integrated in Infogrames as they've bought the rest of the shares. So Infogrames owns now the whole Atari. I've had a great deal of respect for the old Atari, but the new Atari it's just a company who uses the brand. Nothing else.
Atari promised the DLC for Test Drive Unlimited on PC. They've delivered a bastard product. You can only download the product and activate 3 times. LIke you will install the game only 3 times. NWN2 it has more patches than the first(way more). No cumulative updates. You need to have a lot of space to install the patches. Crashes due to the poorly implemented protection which hampers the game. What they fix in one patch they are braking in the next one, while trying to update the protection.
So I'd wish That EA take the DND license from Wizards of The Coast or buy Infogrames(which it's not doing so bright either, they've barey managed to go on profit).
And unfortunately the big companies would rather have a full control over the products they are publishing.
So my support goes to companies like Stardock, which are trying to offer a good game at a decent price, a game made to work on most of the systems, with no invasive copy protection and only the need to register the game to have access to the support section and some extra content. I'd like to see more companies adoptin this model. But they would rather blame the pirates for every failure. And saying that the today's people prefer short games with fabulous graphics. But you can't play graphics, and most of us would rather have more than 4 hours of gameplay(Frontline : Fuel of War, The Turning Point: Fall of Liberty, just to name a few such games) and something that wouldn't make us upgrade our PC at about 3-4 months.