A real solution to the StarF**k virus for everyone.

[Game-Hacker]

I read the EULA of Stronghold2 and I can't see a word mentioning STARFORCE. So can we sue firefly studio?

[CrossWire]

@DABhand
Do you by any chance have your foot in your mouth?

[DABhand]

Step 1:

LIMITED SOFTWARE WARRANTY AND LICENSE AGREEMENT

YOUR USE OF THIS SOFTWARE IS SUBJECT TO THIS LIMITED SOFTWARE WARRANTY AND LICENSE AGREEMENT (THE "AGREEMENT") AND THE TERMS SET FORTH BELOW. THE "SOFTWARE" INCLUDES ALL SOFTWARE INCLUDED WITH THIS AGREEMENT, THE ACCOMPANYING MANUAL (S), PACKAGING AND OTHER WRITTEN, ELECTRONIC OR ON-LINE MATERIALS OR DOCUMENTATION, AND ANY AND ALL COPIES OF SUCH SOFTWARE AND ITS MATERIALS. BY OPENING THE SOFTWARE, INSTALLING, AND/OR USING THE SOFTWARE AND ANY OTHER MATERIALS INCLUDED WITH THE SOFTWARE, YOU HEREBY ACCEPT THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE WITH 2K GAMES ("LICENSOR").

Step 2:

THE SOFTWARE UTILITIES.

The Software may contain a level editor or other similar type tools, assets and other materials (the "Software Utilities") that permit you to construct or customize new game levels and other related game materials for personal use in connection with the Software ("Customized Game Materials"). In the event the Software contains such Software Utilities, the use of the Software Utilities is subject to the following additional terms, conditions and restrictions:

(a) All Customized Game Materials created by you are exclusively owned by LICENSOR and/or its licensors (as the case may be) and you hereby transfer, assign and convey to LICENSOR all right, title and interest in and to the Customized Game Materials and LICENSOR and its permitted licensors may use any Customized Game Materials made publicly available to you for any purpose whatsoever, including but not limited to for purposes of advertising and promoting the Software;
(b) You will not use or permit third parties to use the Software Utilities and the Customized Game Materials created by you for any commercial purposes, including but not limited to distributing, leasing, licensing, renting, selling, or otherwise exploiting, transferring or assigning the ownership of such Customized Game Materials;
(c) Customized Game Materials must be distributed solely for free; provided, that you may contact LICENSOR for a license to commercially exploit the Customized Game Materials which LICENSOR may grant or deny in its sole discretion;
(d) Customized Game Materials shall not contain modifications to any other executable files;
(e) Customized Game Materials must be used alone and can be created if the Customized Game Materials will be used exclusively in combination with the commercially released retail version of the Software.
(f) Customized Game Materials cannot contain libelous, defamatory or other illegal material, material that is scandalous or invades the rights of privacy or publicity of any third party, or contain any trademarks, copyright-protected work or other property of third parties (without a valid license); and
(g) All Customized Game Materials must contain the proper credits to the authors of the Customized Game Materials and must indicate that LICENSOR is not the author of the Customized Game Materials with additional language that "THIS MATERIAL IS NOT MADE, GUARANTEED OR SUPPORTED BY THE PUBLISHER OF THE SOFTWARE OR ITS AFFILIATES."


Now the words Starforce does not indeed been told, but Starforce is incoporated with the game (software as said in EULA)

1st Step, you agreed to all software installed.

2nd Step, it says you agreed to install and they cannot be held responsible for any misuse or damage. As does it do in conjunction with this part also.

IN NO EVENT WILL LICENSOR BE LIABLE FOR SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES RESULTING FROM POSSESSION, USE OR MALFUNCTION OF THE SOFTWARE, INCLUDING DAMAGES TO PROPERTY, LOSS OF GOODWILL, COMPUTER FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION AND, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, DAMAGES FOR PERSONAL INJURIES, EVEN IF LICENSOR HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. LICENSOR’S LIABILITY SHALL NOT EXCEED THE ACTUAL PRICE PAID FOR USE OF THE SOFTWARE. SOME STATES/COUNTRIES DO NOT ALLOW LIMITATIONS ON HOW LONG AN IMPLIED WARRANTY LASTS AND/OR THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, SO THE ABOVE LIMITATIONS AND/OR EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF LIABILITY MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. THIS WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS, AND YOU MAY HAVE OTHER RIGHTS THAT VARY FROM JURISDICTION TO JURISDICTION.


We may not like it, but unfortunately you all agreed to it.

[Grumpy]

@Dabhand
What a complete load of ****e!
When they say 'software' most would presume they are talking about the game as being the said software!
You are asked during the game install, "Do you want to install (ie) V8 Supercars?"
Do you want to install (ie) DirectX9?
Do you want to install Gamespy?
Do you want to install the Acrobat Reader?
All software which we are told about!
But nowhere are we asked "Do you want to install Starforce?"
This, and you damn well know it, is not what they mean by software!
If they had nothing to hide they would also ask "Do you want to install Starforce?"

[Joe Forster/STA]

If game publishers had nothing to hide, they would've already created icons for most copy protection systems, printed them on the product box, and added a URL (yes, outside, on the box!) where the (potential) customer may read more information about the copy protection, including but not limited to known problems, before actually purchasing the item. (The same goes for copy-protected audio CD's, e.g. ones that cannot be played in car CD players, exactly because of the copy protection!)

[Grumpy]

@Joe
Yes, exactly! I agree with what you say, 100%.

[ric_hornet]

You can count on me in boycotting SF protection as well!
I only SF protected game that I bought and own is Silent Hunter III, which I was expecting for a very long time. But I will NOT buy SF protected games anymore even if it's an highly anticipated release like Silent Hunter III.

[CPUYODA]

Ive BEEN boycotting them.......and the only two I miss are SH3 and GTR,because I got a PC to fool with simulations.

But really,if you want a POPULAR boycott,start a site,and keep an up-to-date list of the current games using it.

I'd personally like to see a class action brought against them,and maybe get a law that makes companies state ON THE BOX what protections are used.

Its not likely to happen,but neither is me buy any game I know that uses starcrud.

If EA ever goes that route,alot more people will discover the nasty side of it.

Great discussion guys,most everything else has been said....

[Grumpy]

@CPUYoda
cdsteam already keeps a list of all the games which use Starforce.

[dajunka]

I have been continuing my research, and done quite a bit of probing.
And no zhit guys more and more people are saying no to SF protected games every day. The name StarForce is rapidly becoming a dirty word in the computer community.
Unfortunately my knowledge of web design is limited to f**k all, or I might have had a go at making my own Anti Starforce community web site. Anyway it's a very good idea.
Keep it up, spread the good word, and remember you are not alone.
Let's bury these SF b******ds, so that they never make another penny at our expense.

[DABhand]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

@Dabhand
What a complete load of ****e!
When they say 'software' most would presume they are talking about the game as being the said software!
You are asked during the game install, "Do you want to install (ie) V8 Supercars?"
Do you want to install (ie) DirectX9?
Do you want to install Gamespy?
Do you want to install the Acrobat Reader?
All software which we are told about!
But nowhere are we asked "Do you want to install Starforce?"
This, and you damn well know it, is not what they mean by software!
If they had nothing to hide they would also ask "Do you want to install Starforce?"

Cmon Grumpy I know your more clever than that, the protection is part of the game which you install.

Which is what is mentioned by ALL SOFTWARE in the EULA.

[Joe Forster/STA]

DABhand,

See the applications Grumpy has listed:

- V8 Supercars is by whatever game publisher (don't remember);
- DirectX is by Micro$oft;
- Gamespy is by whatever other publisher;
- Acrobat Reader is by Adobe.

These applications have been developed and published by different companies, therefore, their EULA's are definitely not the same. Actually, before installing them, you can see their own EULA's displayed and you're required to accept them, don't you?

Starforce is by Starforce Technologies or whatever. Another developer and publisher. Why isn't its own EULA displayed? Especially, that, while:

- DirectX is a well-known component of the operating system, is present on pretty much any Windows PC and does nothing bad to your system;
- Gamespy and Acrobat Reader are also old (not obsolete!), respected applications and do nothing bad,

Starforce is a new, unproven (khm!) technology and it is already known to cause minor or major problems.

So?

Joe

[Grumpy]

@Dabhand
You really are being stupidly pig headed about this! I dont know exactly what you are trying to prove?
It does NOT say in the EULA that you accept the installing of any sort of Protection! It says Software, that in itself is misleading! The more you point out the more I believe it would not stand up in a court of law!
They are hiding behind the word Software! It is illegal to mislead or decieve people!
You are showing yourself to be a right twat!

Prediction: Yes I know what you are going to say Dabhand! "It says software in the EULA and you agree to it when you install!" yeh yeh yeh!

[Eagle]

Originally Posted by Joe Forster/STA

DABhand,

See the applications Grumpy has listed:

- V8 Supercars is by whatever game publisher (don't remember);
- DirectX is by Micro$oft;
- Gamespy is by whatever other publisher;
- Acrobat Reader is by Adobe.

These applications have been developed and published by different companies, therefore, their EULA's are definitely not the same. Actually, before installing them, you can see their own EULA's displayed and you're required to accept them, don't you?

Starforce is by Starforce Technologies or whatever. Another developer and publisher. Why isn't its own EULA displayed?

Know Punkbuster?

Every game that has PB Anticheat software included asks you if you want to install it and even displays its own EULA.
And since nearly every Server has PB enabled, I would call PB a _mandatory_ part of the software (game).

[SuspiciousJedi]

Hello everyone, I joined just to be able to discuss this.

First point to make here is that Starforce or for that matter any other copy protection is not initially part of the product it is protecting because it is being added by publisher.

Second point is that the law has precedence over EULA. Or at least it should have. In other words, some company from USA shouldn't have the right to revoke Hungarian (French, German, British, ...) right to make one backup copy for personal use guaranteed by their local law.

Moreover, I am really sick of that "no reliability" bull. Lets try simple analogy. Computer = car, software = car driver. What if taxi driver presented you with such "no reliability" EULA? Would you click on "yes"?

Originally Posted by DABhand

As burning you mean with Alcohol I guess, I have blindwrite and nero and ive yet to have the same problem as you said.

Who are they to judge whether I can use Alcohol or whether I should use Nero instead? I believe they don't have that right.

Originally Posted by DABhand

... the protection is part of the game which you install.

There is no doubt about that, but where is that darn thing identified as being part of it?

Originally Posted by DABhand

All protections have been done the same way from securom, to ProtectCD etc.

First of all, starforce is not a software, it is a combination of drivers and the software it protects.

As such, it is invasive and by any means TOO MUCH invasive thing to have on your computer. Why?

Alcohol 120%, Daemon tools and any other virtual drive applications as well as Soft-Ice, Regmon, Filemon are legitimate software tools whatever you may think about them and people who use them. No one has the right from stopping me to use them on daily basis and to have images of this and that what I otherwise own in my virtual CDs.

Examples:

#1 - I want to listen to a CD while I play the game, I can't because I must put the game CD inside even though it is not really needed. I make virtual game CD of my original and put it in virtual drive and it doesn't work. I make virtual music CD of my music CD and put it in the virtual drive leaving the original game CD in physical drive and it doesn't work because either way it gets blocked by Starforce. I could rip audio CD to mp3 and play it from WinAMP but I am an audio purist and I don't like listening to mp3s. It is my constitutional right to differ from the others.

#2 - I want to play a DVD movie to a family member via my second sound card and the TV out while I am playing but that is not possible with Starforce too.

#3 - I want to use Soft-Ice debugger to debug my own software or the driver I am writting for my company. Now what?

#4 - I want to monitor application setup so I can repackage it because 16 bit setup refuses to run on 64-bit Windows XP. I need registry/file monitoring. Now what?

Not only it is always there, it also doesn't uninstall after the game is uninstalled. You have to remove it manually. For manual removal you have to be aware that it has been installed in the first place. It is even less legitimate than spyware/adware junk that comes with some shareware applications because even that junk shows separate EULA and some of it even allow simple uninstallation from Add/Remove programs in Control Panel.

About the invasive part, the protection intercepts vital system calls to be able to create controlled environment in which the game can be run securely (trusted computing anyone?). What is wrong with that?

Well for one, it is not active only when the game is running so in my view it is a spyware. It can as well contain code to snoop on my network traffic and my keyboard and to disclose that to third parties and there is no way to check whether it does it or not because by protecting the game the way it does (on the kernel level) it protects itself from analysis too. And AFAIK the protection code is not available for public scrutiny.

So there you are, running a black box in your system which may do anything -- spy on you, restrict your other perfectly legal activities, even delete your files or do a security wipe of your hard drive on a low level or even intentionaly fry a piece of hardware because it has higher than admin priviledges (it runs in kernel mode!), and all that without you even knowing it is installed?!?

Originally Posted by DABhand

And again, no matter what you say, game protections are part of a game it comes packaged with it, no if's or but's or maybe's, it has been and always will be.

You know, even simple things like deodorants or detergents or food have their ingredients listed because certain people are alergic to some of them and those people avoid buying it because it could harm them. Same logic can be applied here so I am afraid your point is not valid here.