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#1
23-08-2003, 19:29
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O but it does, comrade, and quite well too. This little FREEWARE jewel knocks 'em others out stone cold when it comes to reading software-protected CDs, and especially ones with tons of bad sectors, I've had countless confirmations of this on different sites & forums, including CDfreaks amongst others. And it's compact since it holds in only 1 file (or 2 if you add the GUI interface .exe) ! But as I said, Discdump is not designed to handle hardware-based schemes such as Securom 4.8+ or Starforce. Against these, there's only Alcohol or - even better - Blindwrite  Besides Discdump is only a READING program. It is often coupled with the (non-freeware but equally compact) 'Fireburner'. However this one is not that essential, nor unique, as any writing software that handles ISO images AND can do RAW-DAO96 is equivalent to Fireburner. It's just that 'Discdump+Fireburner' , well...it just sounds "nice", that's all  semper idem, sed aliter 
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#2
23-08-2003, 19:55
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Well, what is the difference between software and hardware protection?
Its all about freaking 0/1. Therefore, software protection is a hardware protection and hardware protection is software protection.. 
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#3
24-08-2003, 05:03
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No, NO, NO!! (grrr) But I'm glad U asked.. Software protection is about the way data - the "freaking 0/1s" - is coded, ie. the data format (bad sectors, weak sectors, dummy files, invalid TOC, tracks shorter than 4 sec, altered pregap, modified or special subchannel data, etc...). Such data alteration can be carried out simply with appropriate protection/backup software. Hardware protection on the other hand deals with the way the data is arranged, ie. data placement on the surface on the disk - for example in the case of Securom 4.8+ the lands and pits are shorter in some places, thus increasing data density on the disk. Therefore reproducing such density calls not only for proper software, but also special hardware. Without it, only emulation is possible (eg. twinpeaks) Get it? 
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#4
24-08-2003, 05:23
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That means that it would be even easier to use Alcohol on software protections, if it can do hardware, which is above software
or maybe not, I still remember the whole "understanding what it reads" thread. I just don't see how a hardware-copying software is any worse than software-ONLY-copying software  Do you know if Lite-On CD-RWs are going to be a new firmware for SecuROM 4.8+?
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#5
24-08-2003, 08:52
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Quote:
That is irrelevant since the two methods cannot be compared, though they can both be simultaenously used (Securom 4.8+ uses special subchannels AND density variations). Some hardware protections can be quite easily defeated (CD-COPS) whilst software protections using special bad sectors (such as Advanced Ring Protech, often called 'Proring') can give readers a hard time (over 24 hours - depending on reader - for a dump that can even result in a Windows crash!), not to mention weak sectors that not all readers are able to burn. As for reading pregap, or even the entire lead-in, not all readers support it. And don't forget audio CDs : all audio CD protections to this day are only software-based (using fake TOCs and illegal track lengths), yet some such as the most recent versions of Cactus Datashield 100 are extremely difficult to read, if not impossible for most readers. On the other hand, even the most recent versions of Securom can be fooled by the Blindwrite twinpeaks method, provided that BW is updated to avoid blacklists (yep newer Securoms do attempt to blacklist the twinpeaks method - the @£%&*#! bastards ). The Plextor Premium has even gone one step further by implementing Gigarec into its firmware, allowing it to reproduce density variations almost 1:1, close enough to 1:1 to fool the protection check! - though this only has been shown to work with Securom, not Starforce. Nevertheless, it's a milestone. Perhaps other CD burner manufacturers will follow in soon enough. Yet even this writer is only a 2-sheep burner, not a 3-sheep one, ie. can write all weak patterns used today, but not very weak ones that could be used in the future, if not in safedisk 2.9. Indeed I've seen reports, on US, german and french forums, of users succeeding in making successful backups of safedisk 2.9 with their Premium only if EFM enhancement (in Alcohol or BW) was enabled - meaning the backup was only workable, not 1:1! Even Liteon burners have had trouble burning this protection, although some users have managed to burn 1:1 copies without EFM bypass enabled using their LTR 52327S - perhaps thanks to Liteon's new 7S chipset. Unfortunately, this writer is not available in France right now, and even this one has not yet been tested on "3-sheep" patterns - can't wait for the results..So U C, software-based protections can turn out to be very tough nuts to crack for even the most recent readers/burners, and they do have a bright future - perhaps more than hardware-based ones. Quote:
If you mean the ability to reproduce density variations, to this day only the PX Premium has this feature. I don't know when other brands will follow in its wake. Besides given the price of the Premium - surely due to Gigarec - one can only assume that such firmware takes a very long time to develop. And there is perhaps still much room for improvement in this field, since Gigarec can only be used with buffer-underrun protection switched off, thus increasing the chance of having a coaster! If Liteon could write their own gigarec-firmware, that would be most welcome since users would most likely get all its benefits without its main drawback - the cost! But for now, I'm more interested in new Liteon writers' ability to do 100% correct EFM encoding, which would safeguard us against deadlier versions of Safedisk 2.x. After all we've seen what Macrovision are capable of, and no one knows what they've got in mind  semper idem, sed aliter
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#6
24-08-2003, 14:24
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Hmm...
One thing I know is that all those protections cause severe problems on older untweaked systems. People cannot run legit CDs, I visit NWN forums quite often - lots of mad people.... This is why they remove SecuROM, and leave only CD-Checks. This type of customer revolt is probobly the only reason SarForce won't make it to Europe and USA... I made many copies of music CDs (recent ones) - never takes a long time to read and write... I can think of one example of a good software protection - MS Office XP Pro with FrontPage, my 52x Litey was reading it for whole 20 minutes at 600kb in some places.... I still don't understand how software can ehnance CD-RWs ability to READ the same thing. Same mods, same CD-RW - should be read the same way with any type of software...
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#7
24-08-2003, 15:30
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I'd call the protection "badly scratched disks"
M$ dont use commercial copy protections on their Office suites - they just have that hassle of product activation.
__________________
[COLOR=Black][B]A black hole is when god divides by zero...[/B][/COLOR][COLOR=Black][/COLOR]
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#9
24-08-2003, 16:52
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"New" protection...
Quote:
M$ Office CDs don't use bad sectors as a protection - nor any sort of protection as far as I know - so yes, U've surely encountered "real" read errors when making the dump, although there may not be serious scratches on the CD. Check its surface: is it perfectly smooth and CLEAN? I strongly suggest U run Nero CDspeed's scandisc test (tick the 'surface scan' box only): what R the results? I bet there will be a few yellow, or even red squares on the graph... Quote:
They don't "enhance" reader's ability to read it (this would sound like sorcery more like ) : they just tell the reader how to handle what it is reading. For bad sectors for example, ordinary software corrects any read error when making the image, thus taking away eventual 'bad sector' protection. RAW-reading software performs extra operations to tell the difference between real errors and C2 read errors (provided the drive's chipset & firmware allows that!!! - which is the case for most modern readers/burners) and when it finds a C2 error it generates a fake read error in the image (discdump can even copy C2 error as is). Quote:
Big surprise EFM encoding applies to data CDs only, not analog audio ones. There is no error-correction (which obviously is crucial for a data CD) when it comes to an audio disk. Makes sense, too. Therefore, there is no such thing as "bad sectors" (or C2 read errors) protection for audio CDs. Which is why audio CDs - non-scratched ones at least  - take much less time to read, even protected ones that use illegal track lengths or invalid TOCs, which can somewhat slow down the dumping process, but never near to the extent that C2 errors can.semper idem, sed aliter
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#10
24-08-2003, 17:28
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Hmm...
Well, I just checked - the original MS CD is CLEAN, looks brand new, AND the backup looks the same. BUT it takes a long time to make a backup from backup  .Thats not the surface problem - I can tell you that...
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#11
24-08-2003, 18:05
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What about Nero CDspeed ?
U ought to run CDspeed 'scandisk' test (surface scan option): this should NOT be overlooked, as it could provide some info on the disk - all the more so than it's a data disk. semper idem, sed aliter
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#13
24-08-2003, 19:13
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What the ... I hope we're talking about the same prog: Nero (ahead software) CDspeed. In the 'Extra' menu -> 'Scandisc' -> tick 'surface scan' box and click 'start' button !!! In 'scandisc' there are 2 options: 'file test' and 'surface scan' - the latter should B easy enough 2 find... If you don't have the prog, U can download 'CDspeed.exe' from Ahead's homepage, it's freeware. 
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#14
26-08-2003, 16:45
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Checked, its FLAWLESS 99% but still takes a LOT of time to read.
Maybe its just the density or something, not protection. ClonyXXL does not detect any protection.
__________________
Everybody - be cool, YOU - be cool!
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#15
26-08-2003, 18:46
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What do U mean "99% flawless" : does the graph also show yellow or red squares ? Quote:
LOLOL I'll tell you what it is: PARANOIA PROTECTION (TM) Relax man, I doubt Micro$oft would use density variations, especially on an Office CD. Besides U can always check it out with BWAbuilder and see what the graph looks like..
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