[SuspiciousJedi]

Hello everyone, I joined just to be able to discuss this.

First point to make here is that Starforce or for that matter any other copy protection is not initially part of the product it is protecting because it is being added by publisher.

Second point is that the law has precedence over EULA. Or at least it should have. In other words, some company from USA shouldn't have the right to revoke Hungarian (French, German, British, ...) right to make one backup copy for personal use guaranteed by their local law.

Moreover, I am really sick of that "no reliability" bull. Lets try simple analogy. Computer = car, software = car driver. What if taxi driver presented you with such "no reliability" EULA? Would you click on "yes"?

Originally Posted by DABhand

As burning you mean with Alcohol I guess, I have blindwrite and nero and ive yet to have the same problem as you said.

Who are they to judge whether I can use Alcohol or whether I should use Nero instead? I believe they don't have that right.

Originally Posted by DABhand

... the protection is part of the game which you install.

There is no doubt about that, but where is that darn thing identified as being part of it?

Originally Posted by DABhand

All protections have been done the same way from securom, to ProtectCD etc.

First of all, starforce is not a software, it is a combination of drivers and the software it protects.

As such, it is invasive and by any means TOO MUCH invasive thing to have on your computer. Why?

Alcohol 120%, Daemon tools and any other virtual drive applications as well as Soft-Ice, Regmon, Filemon are legitimate software tools whatever you may think about them and people who use them. No one has the right from stopping me to use them on daily basis and to have images of this and that what I otherwise own in my virtual CDs.

Examples:

#1 - I want to listen to a CD while I play the game, I can't because I must put the game CD inside even though it is not really needed. I make virtual game CD of my original and put it in virtual drive and it doesn't work. I make virtual music CD of my music CD and put it in the virtual drive leaving the original game CD in physical drive and it doesn't work because either way it gets blocked by Starforce. I could rip audio CD to mp3 and play it from WinAMP but I am an audio purist and I don't like listening to mp3s. It is my constitutional right to differ from the others.

#2 - I want to play a DVD movie to a family member via my second sound card and the TV out while I am playing but that is not possible with Starforce too.

#3 - I want to use Soft-Ice debugger to debug my own software or the driver I am writting for my company. Now what?

#4 - I want to monitor application setup so I can repackage it because 16 bit setup refuses to run on 64-bit Windows XP. I need registry/file monitoring. Now what?

Not only it is always there, it also doesn't uninstall after the game is uninstalled. You have to remove it manually. For manual removal you have to be aware that it has been installed in the first place. It is even less legitimate than spyware/adware junk that comes with some shareware applications because even that junk shows separate EULA and some of it even allow simple uninstallation from Add/Remove programs in Control Panel.

About the invasive part, the protection intercepts vital system calls to be able to create controlled environment in which the game can be run securely (trusted computing anyone?). What is wrong with that?

Well for one, it is not active only when the game is running so in my view it is a spyware. It can as well contain code to snoop on my network traffic and my keyboard and to disclose that to third parties and there is no way to check whether it does it or not because by protecting the game the way it does (on the kernel level) it protects itself from analysis too. And AFAIK the protection code is not available for public scrutiny.

So there you are, running a black box in your system which may do anything -- spy on you, restrict your other perfectly legal activities, even delete your files or do a security wipe of your hard drive on a low level or even intentionaly fry a piece of hardware because it has higher than admin priviledges (it runs in kernel mode!), and all that without you even knowing it is installed?!?

Originally Posted by DABhand

And again, no matter what you say, game protections are part of a game it comes packaged with it, no if's or but's or maybe's, it has been and always will be.

You know, even simple things like deodorants or detergents or food have their ingredients listed because certain people are alergic to some of them and those people avoid buying it because it could harm them. Same logic can be applied here so I am afraid your point is not valid here.