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Bad Sectors
Hi, what shoud I do, if ClonyXXl says "Bad Sectors at 3000" and the Back-up dosen't work?
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I've got a prob too: tried to copy a certain game and the backup didn't work. What do you advise?
Got the msg? BE MORE PRECISE!!! :mad: :mad: - Before burning the image, have U tried mounting it as a virtual CD to 2 see if the image itself wuz correct, ie. game installs & launches from virtual drive?? - What reader/burner have U got? - What version of ClonyX are you using? - Has it identified the protection? - What read/write software have you used? - What's your favorite horror movie? :D etc... Latest version of ClonyX (2.0.1.5) can identify almost all protections, whereas ClonyX 2.0.0.6 cannot, however this older version, unlike its recent counterparts, also suggests the appropriate read/write settings for CloneCD. So U should first try running Clonyx 2.0.1.5, then Clonyx 2.0.0.6 Usually when handling bad sectors simple RAW mode reading will suffice. And remember: before burning a dump onto CD, test it using a CD emulator (latest 'Daemon tools' or 'Alcohol 120%' or something) Quote:
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I have a MSI CDRW 48x16x48.
I have made an image an load it with alcohol 120%. Doesn't work. I have ClonyXXL v2.0.1.4c and it says: "Bad Sectors at 3000". Any more questions? |
Try downloading ClonyX 2.0.1.5 here. It might be able to identify the protection since U say version 2.0.1.4 didn't and only reported read errors.
It also depends on the settings U used with Alcohol. I rarely use this software for purposes other than CD emulation. If the game didn't work in the virtual drive, then either the dump was not 1:1 OR Alcohol may be blacklisted by the game. Make sure U have the latest version. U could also try mounting with the (latest) 'Daemon Tools', ie. v3.33. If the game has a hardware protection (CD-cops, Securom 4.8xx or Starforce) then a media descriptor file is also needed (.mds or .bwa file). U can try the Blindwrite + BWAbuilder combo. But as I said all this depends on the CD protection. What is the game title and its edition (ie. US, European, ...) ??? |
The title is "Soldier of Anarchy" and its European.
ClonyXXL v2..0.1.5 says SecuRom v4.8! |
Dire straits
If that's the case then I'm afraid 2 say, you've got a major prob comrade. :(
Indeed the protection used on the UK version of SOA seems to be a very tough nut to crack, there's a 2-page thread that discusses it here . Apparently it's like a deadlier strain of Securom 4.8x, some sort of Securom 4.8 + bad sectors hybrid, the read errors thus thwarting BWAbuilder's attempts to complete extraction of physical media information. I've never heard of such a devilry before. There's only one way 2 find out. 1st things 1st, download and install latest Blindwrite. To find out if your reader(s) are compatible with BWAbuilder, run it on a normal CD-ROM or CD-R at 8x speed or even higher. If the reader supports it, then you will see a smooth parabolic curve. !!! Remember to disable all non-essential applications when running BWAbuilder, especially when a CD can be hardware-protected, ie Securom 4.8x, Starforce, etc... !!! Now run BWAbuilder on the original CD at 4x speed with automatic set to last sector and see the results (never mind if reading aborts on error): is the curve - or partial curve - a smooth parabola or does it have 2 or more irregularities making it look "thicker" in some places? |
No, get Alcohol 120%, and then get the .MDS file by setting precision to HIGH - its much more precise than BlindWrite's BWABuilder.
IceBreaker - I think I will be doing this all the time you suggest BlindWrite :D . |
Alcoholics Anonymous
*cough* *cough* let me remind U that Blindwrite is the ONLY software that can statically emulate density variations on a backup CD, ie. no running background programs are needed. Whisky 120% on the other hand does NOT use twinsectors and a backup made with Alcohol+DPM requires Alcohol to be loaded for it to work!
UNLESS ... unless U meant using Alcohol only to create an .mds file (with 'high' precision) and then convert it to .bwa with BWAbuilder - not a bad idea. In that case never mind the previous paragraph. Besides, this still needs Blindwrite to be used 4 the burning part hehe... :cool: A word of warning for Alcohol 120% users : Drinking and Burning is not recommended as it will most likely result in incorrect Data Position Measurement - regardless of precision settings - and may be sanctionned to the maximum possible extent of the law :D :D |
Er, I think we already discussed that after uninstallation of BlindWrite - there are certain files are STILL loaded in the memory. Alcohol is simply more honest and removes all files once its uninstalled :D .
Yes, get just the .MDS file and NO, BlindWrite is NOT needed. Once you have the .MDS file, then simply read the image using ERROR SKIP and READ SUBCHANNEL DATA options. Once you are done - use Alcoholer's TwinCreator (which can PATCH .MDS diles and .MDF files with TwinPeak) to patch the files, and then burn with Alcohol 120% :D . No BlindWrite once again! Quote:
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Alcohol 0% ...
Oh yeah I'd forgotten about that 'TwinCreator' thing. Still think creating Alcohol .mds, converting .mds -> .bwa and burning BW image is simpler though - I'll call it my new patented 'Alcohol+Blindwrite' hybrid method - or "soft liquor" method, if ye like :p
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Actually, TwinCreator only patches the .MDF file according to the data in the .MDS descriptor !! Surely inveterate Alcoholics should be knowing their favorite software better than that... ;) semper idem, sed aliter |
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Question - when you get the .MDS file and convert to BWA file, and then use BlindWrite - does BlindWrite automatically patch the file with TwinPeak 0.2? If not - thats not good, if yes - thats good! Its just the more complicated and difficult ways are usually the most guaranteed ways. |
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Answer - no and yes...how to explain...actually, it's much simpler than that! :D First of all, Twinpeak is not a seperate program, it's a twin-sectors routine built into the main Blindwrite program. Blindwrite does NOT modify the BW image - for security reasons relating to the twinsectors method and detailed in the BWA .doc file provided by blindwrite. Basically, depending on the reader used to create the data/physical images, a patched file can in rare cases be corrupted by the twinpeaks method (ie. game data loss!!), obviously resulting in a coaster if the corrupt image is burned to CD. When about to burn a BW image onto a CD-R(W), BW asks you if you want to include the physical media info contained in the BWA file (if it finds such a file with same name as the BW image & in same folder of cos'). If you answer 'yes', then it combines the BW image and the data in the .BWA file when burning the CD. So it comes down to EXACTLY the same thing as patching a CD image - then the BWA file is no longer needed - and burning the patched dump onto CD. The only difference is that as I said in the case of BW the image is left intact, CD data and CD physical info are kept in seperate files. So U C, BW is quite simple - so simple in fact that one could use it blindfolded, hence its name :D semper idem, sed aliter |
Hmm...
Well, I prefer 1000s of options to simplicity since it allows you to create a better image, more more precise image, or lets ust say - as close to 1:1 as possible :D . BlindWrite did wonders with my oldy Plextor 16x. I made working copies of MORROWIND with it :D - the highly protected SafeDisk game. Alcohol 120% seems more professional. |
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to a certain "degree" (no pun intended :D ) To each CD scheme the appropriate tool. I've found out that for advanced software protections such as safedisk 2.8+, and especially 2.9, even BW is not always up to the task. In these cases nothing beats the 'Discdump + Fireburner' combo. When it comes to "hardware" protections such as CD-COPS, Starforce or Securom 4.8+, well it seems there are 2 camps: the blind & the alcoholics. :D But hey, we're all working for the same goal, right? WORLD DOMINATION! no, wait...wrong thread... |
I do not believe that Discdump - FREEWARE (its freeware, right?) can do a better job than Alcohol!
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O but it does, comrade, and quite well too. This little FREEWARE jewel knocks 'em others out stone cold when it comes to reading software-protected CDs, and especially ones with tons of bad sectors, I've had countless confirmations of this on different sites & forums, including CDfreaks amongst others. And it's compact since it holds in only 1 file (or 2 if you add the GUI interface .exe) ! But as I said, Discdump is not designed to handle hardware-based schemes such as Securom 4.8+ or Starforce. Against these, there's only Alcohol or - even better - Blindwrite :D Besides Discdump is only a READING program. It is often coupled with the (non-freeware but equally compact) 'Fireburner'. However this one is not that essential, nor unique, as any writing software that handles ISO images AND can do RAW-DAO96 is equivalent to Fireburner. It's just that 'Discdump+Fireburner' , well...it just sounds "nice", that's all :p semper idem, sed aliter |
Well, what is the difference between software and hardware protection?
Its all about freaking 0/1. Therefore, software protection is a hardware protection and hardware protection is software protection..:mad: |
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No, NO, NO!! (grrr) :mad: :mad: But I'm glad U asked.. Software protection is about the way data - the "freaking 0/1s" - is coded, ie. the data format (bad sectors, weak sectors, dummy files, invalid TOC, tracks shorter than 4 sec, altered pregap, modified or special subchannel data, etc...). Such data alteration can be carried out simply with appropriate protection/backup software. Hardware protection on the other hand deals with the way the data is arranged, ie. data placement on the surface on the disk - for example in the case of Securom 4.8+ the lands and pits are shorter in some places, thus increasing data density on the disk. Therefore reproducing such density calls not only for proper software, but also special hardware. Without it, only emulation is possible (eg. twinpeaks) Get it? :cool: |
That means that it would be even easier to use Alcohol on software protections, if it can do hardware, which is above software :D or maybe not, I still remember the whole "understanding what it reads" thread. I just don't see how a hardware-copying software is any worse than software-ONLY-copying software :(
Do you know if Lite-On CD-RWs are going to be a new firmware for SecuROM 4.8+? |
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That is irrelevant since the two methods cannot be compared, though they can both be simultaenously used (Securom 4.8+ uses special subchannels AND density variations). Some hardware protections can be quite easily defeated (CD-COPS) whilst software protections using special bad sectors (such as Advanced Ring Protech, often called 'Proring') can give readers a hard time (over 24 hours - depending on reader - for a dump that can even result in a Windows crash!), not to mention weak sectors that not all readers are able to burn. As for reading pregap, or even the entire lead-in, not all readers support it. And don't forget audio CDs : all audio CD protections to this day are only software-based (using fake TOCs and illegal track lengths), yet some such as the most recent versions of Cactus Datashield 100 are extremely difficult to read, if not impossible for most readers. On the other hand, even the most recent versions of Securom can be fooled by the Blindwrite twinpeaks method, provided that BW is updated to avoid blacklists (yep newer Securoms do attempt to blacklist the twinpeaks method - the @£%&*#! bastards :mad: ). The Plextor Premium has even gone one step further by implementing Gigarec into its firmware, allowing it to reproduce density variations almost 1:1, close enough to 1:1 to fool the protection check! - though this only has been shown to work with Securom, not Starforce. Nevertheless, it's a milestone. Perhaps other CD burner manufacturers will follow in soon enough. Yet even this writer is only a 2-sheep burner, not a 3-sheep one, ie. can write all weak patterns used today, but not very weak ones that could be used in the future, if not in safedisk 2.9. Indeed I've seen reports, on US, german and french forums, of users succeeding in making successful backups of safedisk 2.9 with their Premium only if EFM enhancement (in Alcohol or BW) was enabled - meaning the backup was only workable, not 1:1! Even Liteon burners have had trouble burning this protection, although some users have managed to burn 1:1 copies without EFM bypass enabled using their LTR 52327S - perhaps thanks to Liteon's new 7S chipset. Unfortunately, this writer is not available in France right now, and even this one has not yet been tested on "3-sheep" patterns - can't wait for the results.. So U C, software-based protections can turn out to be very tough nuts to crack for even the most recent readers/burners, and they do have a bright future - perhaps more than hardware-based ones. :( Quote:
If you mean the ability to reproduce density variations, to this day only the PX Premium has this feature. I don't know when other brands will follow in its wake. Besides given the price of the Premium - surely due to Gigarec - one can only assume that such firmware takes a very long time to develop. And there is perhaps still much room for improvement in this field, since Gigarec can only be used with buffer-underrun protection switched off, thus increasing the chance of having a coaster! If Liteon could write their own gigarec-firmware, that would be most welcome since users would most likely get all its benefits without its main drawback - the cost! But for now, I'm more interested in new Liteon writers' ability to do 100% correct EFM encoding, which would safeguard us against deadlier versions of Safedisk 2.x. After all we've seen what Macrovision are capable of, and no one knows what they've got in mind :confused: semper idem, sed aliter |
Hmm...
One thing I know is that all those protections cause severe problems on older untweaked systems. People cannot run legit CDs, I visit NWN forums quite often - lots of mad people.... This is why they remove SecuROM, and leave only CD-Checks. This type of customer revolt is probobly the only reason SarForce won't make it to Europe and USA... I made many copies of music CDs (recent ones) - never takes a long time to read and write... I can think of one example of a good software protection - MS Office XP Pro with FrontPage, my 52x Litey was reading it for whole 20 minutes at 600kb in some places.... I still don't understand how software can ehnance CD-RWs ability to READ the same thing. Same mods, same CD-RW - should be read the same way with any type of software... |
I'd call the protection "badly scratched disks"
M$ dont use commercial copy protections on their Office suites - they just have that hassle of product activation. |
EH? Must be something wierd then....
It takes a very long time to read certain parts of the CD, and its scratchless :( . |
"New" protection...
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M$ Office CDs don't use bad sectors as a protection - nor any sort of protection as far as I know - so yes, U've surely encountered "real" read errors when making the dump, although there may not be serious scratches on the CD. Check its surface: is it perfectly smooth and CLEAN? I strongly suggest U run Nero CDspeed's scandisc test (tick the 'surface scan' box only): what R the results? I bet there will be a few yellow, or even red squares on the graph... Quote:
They don't "enhance" reader's ability to read it (this would sound like sorcery more like :D ) : they just tell the reader how to handle what it is reading. For bad sectors for example, ordinary software corrects any read error when making the image, thus taking away eventual 'bad sector' protection. RAW-reading software performs extra operations to tell the difference between real errors and C2 read errors (provided the drive's chipset & firmware allows that!!! - which is the case for most modern readers/burners) and when it finds a C2 error it generates a fake read error in the image (discdump can even copy C2 error as is). Quote:
Big surprise :D EFM encoding applies to data CDs only, not analog audio ones. There is no error-correction (which obviously is crucial for a data CD) when it comes to an audio disk. Makes sense, too. Therefore, there is no such thing as "bad sectors" (or C2 read errors) protection for audio CDs. Which is why audio CDs - non-scratched ones at least ;) - take much less time to read, even protected ones that use illegal track lengths or invalid TOCs, which can somewhat slow down the dumping process, but never near to the extent that C2 errors can. semper idem, sed aliter |
Hmm...
Well, I just checked - the original MS CD is CLEAN, looks brand new, AND the backup looks the same. BUT it takes a long time to make a backup from backup :rolleyes: . Thats not the surface problem - I can tell you that... |
What about Nero CDspeed ?
U ought to run CDspeed 'scandisk' test (surface scan option): this should NOT be overlooked, as it could provide some info on the disk - all the more so than it's a data disk. semper idem, sed aliter |
Trying to find the option!
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What the ... :confused: I hope we're talking about the same prog: Nero (ahead software) CDspeed. In the 'Extra' menu -> 'Scandisc' -> tick 'surface scan' box and click 'start' button !!! In 'scandisc' there are 2 options: 'file test' and 'surface scan' - the latter should B easy enough 2 find... If you don't have the prog, U can download 'CDspeed.exe' from Ahead's homepage, it's freeware. :) |
Checked, its FLAWLESS 99% but still takes a LOT of time to read.
Maybe its just the density or something, not protection. ClonyXXL does not detect any protection. |
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What do U mean "99% flawless" : does the graph also show yellow or red squares ? Quote:
LOLOL I'll tell you what it is: PARANOIA PROTECTION (TM) :D :D :D Relax man, I doubt Micro$oft would use density variations, especially on an Office CD. Besides U can always check it out with BWAbuilder and see what the graph looks like.. |
LOLOL - laughing out loud out loud :D .
Trying to intergrate SafeDisk into speech? |
New Safedisk
Exactly :cool: Notice the repeated 'LO' pattern, called 'regular bit patterns' - or weak sectors - like those used in Safedisk 2+.
Patent is pending for a new language that - like safedisk 2 - many can read but few can write :D :D :D semper idem, sed aliter |
Heh, first haxor, then I created a language of which I cannot talk about (its sort of like Hi.001_how.rar_are.inf_you.iso_today.bin?).
And now CDFreak language... |
Total recall
Blah blah etc...
OK this wuz an extremely interesting off-topic. :rolleyes: :p Now what was the original subject of the thread again .. hmm, can't recall it now, let me think... ... goes into deep meditation ... very difficult to remember ... tries to reach back ages and ages ago, several countless posts in the past ... and at last : Got it! :D :D :D U were having a major prob with a M$ Office CD which featured a so-called "protection". This made me curious too, so on my advice U ran CDspeed's 'Scandisk' surface test and it wuz "99% correct". But what were the exact results? Were there yellow or RED squares on the graph? Furthermore did U run BWAbuilder on it??? What did the graph look like??? |
There were no red squares on the graph, a few yellow if I remember correctly...
Still not an excuse to read a 700Kb/sec :o |
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O but it IS, Dr. Watson :D That explains everything! No red squares is good news, it means that the damaged data on the CD can be ENTIRELY recovered thanks to EFM redundancy (error correction - remind U of anything ? ;) ). Still, the data corresponding to the yellow squares IS damaged, therefore it is normal for the reader's error correction to slow reading down to such a speed when encountering EFM anomalies: 700 Mb/sec is perfectly normal in such situations - notice that this is still much faster than when reading irrecoverable errors (ie. "red squares" in CDspeed). Case closed! :cool: |
Case not closed.
I just made a copy of the CD, I used a brand new CD-R for that. It took a long time to read. Now, I copied the stuff to a CD-R. Now, I ran CD-Check thingy, and I had NO YELLOW OR RED squares - 100% clean. So, I stick it back in my Litey, try to read and WOAH - same 700Kb/sec! How do you explain that? Yellow squares got VIRTUALLY copied? |
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LOL, I am getting real deep in CD exploration now, beware!
Soon nobody will be to answer any of my questions... |
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it is YOU who are not able to understand your own drive's behavior, hehe.. :D :D :D Yet this slow-read thing got me thinking too, that's 4 sure. I thought of CD-R media compatibility at first, as ALL readers have their "preferences" and are known to slow down when reading with some CD-R(W) brands. Liteon has its own weak points. But on the other hand U say the reading slowed down the same way on the ORIGINAL CD as well !?! :confused: Then I thought, perhaps the CD is overburned, but even if it is, the 52246S can read and even write to 99 mins, at full 52x speed! (Tested it myself with CDspeed). Alas I cannot think of a logical Xplanation, perhaps U R right: Quote:
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