Should I read at lower speeds?
 

I have Lite-On 52x/24x/52x CD-RW with latest firmware.
So far I tried to burn (backup) only one game with it - BF1942 and I used Alcohol 120%. I read that Bypass EFM error has to be unchecked (or use SafeDisk 1 settings, but the game is SafeDisk 2 protected).

Well, I read at speed of 52x and burnt at 52x
I could NOT makr a perfect backup, I tried 3 times, and it does not detect the CD as the original.

Should I read or burn at lower speeds?
Any other ideas why I can't make 1:1 copies?

Note: I got latest drivers for my IDE controller, etc.

why not try answering your question yourself and actually try reading at a lower speed and seeing what happens.. trial and error

It takes too long, my CD-RW won't work with Alcohol 120% unless its in PIO mode which is SLOW even at 52x...

The only thing I can also try is set the PRECISION thing to HIGH from NORMAL.

Read with 4x speed -> use Safedisc 2 profile.
Write at 4x or 8x with the SafeDisc 2 profile to.Should work.

40 minutes per CD :D ...

If you need to do it very fast than try to burn at 16x-24x but when making an image use a low speed reading to create a good image :) My friend burned a CD at 52x and it was unreable (LG) :(

Hmms, should I use the HIGH precision thing too?

No : High Precision is only for CDs that are protected with physical meansurment protection like CD-COPS , StarForce.You have a simple SD 2

Hmm...Vluka's guide says MAX SPEED everywhere....

What protection
 

Machina ,

I do not know this game - 'BF1942'.

However I do own an LTR 52246S myself and have never made non-working dumps despite constantly setting clonecd/blindwrite reading speed to Max, whether I wuz dealing with Safedisk 2.xx, Securom 4.8x, or whatever...

Have-you got ClonyXXL latest version? If so, what protection exactly does it indicate ?

If it's safedisk 2.8 or later, then forget about alcohol 120%, or even clonecd - indeed the limitation comes from the software, not the writer, for your Litey does offer full pregap-reading support, but neither alcohol nor clonecd do bother to read the pregap - they just generate it, leaving the protection unshaken :mad: . Discjuggler is known to be able to read all the lead-in data (which comprises pregap), as long as the reader/writer allows it, which is your case. Otherwise, U could give Blindwrite 4.2 or later a try...

I was using Alcohol 120%, and the game is SafeDisk 2.8 I think (I know its SafeDisk 2 for sure).
I read about how to burn it, followed all the intructions, but the copy does not work...

Tha'waz quick
 

Hey slow down man, U replied too fast I was still editing my previous post :D :D . Do read it again...

I've been using BlindWrite before Alcohol 120% and I do not remember being able to edit many settings there (does it figure out what protection is used by itself?) , and it says that Alcohol 120% has a higher precision reading or something...
I did like BlindWrite, but from what I heard, it does not make 1:1 copies, it uses other ways to make WORKABLE copies...

Maybe I should try it again...
I made working copies of Morrowind with my Plextor 16x CD-RW and BlindWrite...

When VSO released their 4.2 blindwrite version, at that time they claimed that theirs was the only software capable of making 1:1 copies of safedisk 2.8 without any workaround needed, provided the writer wuz up to it. I'd advise U give it a try (! remember 2 disable weak sector amplification !) - with safedisk 2.x, in theory there is no need to Xtract subchannel data. But if you do, disregard Clonyxxl advice, for the 52246S is known to be far better at extracting subchannel data at high speed :confused: (yes seems unbelievable to me too, but I copied UT2003 using Blindwrite at max read speed, successfully), so set read speed to max.

In theory, the 52246S (and even some previous LTRs) is 'ideal' for safedisk 2.xx schemes, even 2.8 & 2.9

However I've had contradictory reports concerning safedisk 2.8

Indeed on one hand I've heard that safedisk 2.8+ was specifically aimed at 'targetting the LTR 52246S's 6S chipset' - the @%*$¤§#! bastards :mad: (anyways future Liteys such as 52327S will have new chipsets hehe...)

On the other hand I've had multiple reports of successful 1:1 safedisk 2.8 or even 2.9 backups created with this same writer, without any emulation needed...


Besides, to me having a protection scheme target a specific chipset simply doesn't make sense, since software can only interact directly with a device's firmware, not its chipset.

what is your firmware revision? (mine is '6SOF' - the latest :cool: )

Yes, thats my firmware version.
Well, I hate having more than one utility to burn CDs. I use NERO for all the normal stuff, and now use Alcohol 120% for backups.
I NEED Alcohol 120%, without it, I cannot install Gothic 2 backup - I use Alcohol's emulation for it to install properly...

No booze...
 

If Gothic 2 has Securom 4.8xx, Blindwrite+BWAbuilder can allow U to successfully backup the game using "static" securom emultation, ie. you won't need any active emulator, any program whatsoever running in the background upon game launch! :)
But one must remember to giev the BWA file the same name as the BWT image & place it in the same folder...

Have U tried again backing up BF1942 (safedisk 2.8) using BW with your Liteon (4 trial & error any blank CD-RW will suffice)???

Not yet...
Not going to, for some reason, my Lite-On CD-RW doesn't detect the CD as the original, but my DVD-ROM does...
My friend's CD-ROM detects it as the original CD, and another's guy CD-RW, but not my Lite-On! :mad:

Dump it up...
 

Affirmative mon ami, that is normal - and I think I know why :cool:

You have used Alcohol 120 to dump the BF1942 cd image. As I previously pointed out, although your burner supports reading pregap, Alcohol does NOT implement it (though it supports writing pregap). Ipso facto, your backup does not have the correct pregap. But since the 52246S is able to read the lead-in, the games checks for the correct pregap when you insert backup CD in the 52246S. However if you insert the same backup (or even the original) in another reader that has no full pregap-reading support, the game CANNOT check for pregap and therefore launches, since the developpers of the game wanted the original CD to to work in ALL drive so as to avoid possible refunds - which makes sense, non?

Therefore, if U want BF1942 backup to work, U must make a correct dump first (cf. Discjuggler or possibly BW? :D )

:) Seems like I know what is going now...
Well, going to try BlindWrite
But then, how is it that other people created perfect images of BF1942 with Alcohl 120%? Is it ever going to support the pregap thing?

I am so confused about all this copying...
Its 0s and 1s, used as gaps - why is it so hard to make something that can read 0s and 1s and copy them in the exact same order and position?

I also don't understand how VLuka asks to try on CD-RW first...
Any CD-RW I tried - says not enough space....

Some like it RAW
 

I Xplained it! The backups created using only Whisky 120%, although they were NOT 1:1, worked only because the drives they were tested in did not support pregap reading (that's the only reason I can think of) -> games sees that drive can't read pregap -> game can't check pregap -> game skips pregap check.


I'm more of a newbie in the matter, but as far as I know:
Unlike RAW writing, which really IS raw (ie. drive writes without bothering about the data it is writing), RAW reading cannot be 100% raw since the reader HAS to "understand" to a small extent what is being read, mainly to tell the difference between real read errors due to scratches etc.. (which can sometimes be corrected by the reader thanks to EFM modulation) and deliberate (C2) errors which must be copied 'as are', without correction. Part of the subchannel data must also be interpreted by the reader (thus not read in RAW fashion), such as sector position on CD - and Tagès scheme makes use of this :mad:

So U C, the closest on can get real RAW-reading is perhaps by switching off reader's hardware error-correction (if it allows it) - but in doing so, unless you have a CD-ROM in PERFECT state AND you read at 1x, you're bound to end up with a sh*tload of errors in your image file...

Gr...


OK, the Alcohol 120% thing.
I was saying that some people used it and made a perfect 1:1 image with the gap thing or whatever, they used Lite-On CD-RWs...

And for the second one - I think they should make a special device that does not have to understand anything, just read and write, maybe it should not even attach to a PC...

Of pits & lands
 

Dream on :D
Such a device would have to do WITHOUT using EFM redundancy (ie. without internal error correction, or ECC) - and the possibility of there being the slightest spot, let alone scratch, on the surface of a data CD makes EFM encoding, and thus error correction, compulsory to be able to correct the resulting read errors AND distinguish these from C2 (fake) errors, ie. safedisk & co.

Besides, even if it were possible to keep a CD perfectly smooth & intact ( :rolleyes: ), this device - deprived of ECC - would call on almost "supernatural" accuracy to be able to read every pit & land without making a single mistake!

So I'm sorry to say this, but forget it man, it's a forlorn hope - but hey, perhaps YOU could give it a try :D :D :D

Er...I thought a minor I/0 mistake would mean that data is different...and erm...
Nevermind...

I'm stupid, nevermind, and great thanks for help...

I just don't understand...
If there is an error in binary data then the whole freaking file/installation or whatever would be screwed, but no, CD-ROMs read data just fine...so....why can't another machine read data and copy it....

How do they do it at factories? I heard they like STAPLE an image onto a CD...

afterburners
 

As I told U, the reader manages to read data correctly thanks 2 EFM redundancy - data is sort of like "repeated" on the CD, allowing reader's internal error correction to correct the data if the damage is not too great (minor scratches, etc...). However because of the necessity of this error correction AND because of the existence of fake errors part of some copy-protection schemes, 100% RAW reading is impossible, for the reader will HAVE to "understand" to some extent what it is reading - it is inevitable, Mr Anderson... :cool:

CD-ROMs have a metallic surface as far as I know

CD-Rs have a surface covered with a colored, non-metallic substance

In factories, they make CD-ROMs, not CD-Rs. Since CD-ROMs are metallic, they are "etched", or pressed: there are pits & lands, the pits are cut by powerful lasers.

But we - the average users - don't have CD-pressers, which are not sold on the market anyways. We use CD-Rs, and our CD-burners burn black marks onto the colored surface of the CD-R. These black pecks simulate a CD-ROM's pit. Besides, unlike factory CD-pressers, our burners' lasers are not strong enough to cut a pit into the metallic surface of a CD-ROM, so it would be pointless to buy blank CD-ROMs, if these were 2 B found on the market...:D

Quote:

Early to bed and early to rise and you will make your neighbours suspicious

I still believe that a machine that can build CD-ROMs and CD-Rs perfectly can be made, if you put a good billion bucks in it...

So, if data is being repeated on a CD, then how much REAL space does a CD have? Because when I burn 300Mb file on a CD, it takes up 300Mb :D .

Send me the billion & I'll send you the machine :D

Because of EFM encoding, a byte (8 bits) is coded into a 14-bit sequence (hence Eight to Fourteen Modulation), plus 3 "header"-bits (I think), therefore 17 bits in total. So actually, a 700 Mb CD can hold 700*17/8=1487.5 Mb of data - actually, it would be more correct to say 8*1487.5=11900 Mbits, for speaking in terms of bytes would make no sense here - but don't get carried away, for that's 1487.5 "Mb" of "incomprehensible" data, the real data (the bytes) is only 700 Mb in maximum size, after EFM decoding.

Quote:

There are 10 types of people in this world - those who understand binary and those who don't

Where did you learn all this?


I am sort of getting it...
But, will there ever be CD-RWs and software than can copy SecuROM 4.8+ and etc! I am talking 1:1 copy, not workable copy.
I don't know, I think if something CAN be read, then it CAN be copied :D .

Reading, surfing, hearsay, etc...:cool:

But hey, I'm but only a newbie in the matter

the 'cdfreaks' forum can sometimes be an interesting source of info

perhaps U could also check out 'cdrinfo.com'

To this day, only hardware-based copy protections, eg. based on density variation (securom 4/8xx, starforce) pose a real 1:1 copy problem - the Plextor premium is (to this day) the only burner that can reproduce sector density variations (almost)1:1. However, since all modern readers/burners can read these variations, the ability to write them is most certainly a firmware issue.

If it can be Read it can be Burnt

Besides density variations can easily be statically emulated using the Blindwrite-BWAbuilder combo, ie. without any emulator having to run in the background - to do so, BW uses the 'twinpeak' method or something.

Blindwrite+BWAbuilder seems 2B the most versatile tool (backup Safedisk 2.8+, Securom 4.8xx, etc...) however quality seems dubious at times - I once tried to backup a 'Ring-Protech new' disk (game wuz 'Inquisition', european version) using Blindwrite with 'multiple gaps' setting as recommended - it's like 'Intelligent Sector Scan' in Clonecd - and ran into a sh*tload of probs :mad: . I had to turn to clonecd with ISS on to pull it off.

Woah...
OK...

Well, I already asked, but how can I practice?
If I am to use a CD-RW - would it be JUST like CD-R?
Last time I tried, it said there was not enough space!

underburning?
 

Yep, just like using a CD-R, Xcept that U can go back if things go wrong ;)

Were U using 650 Mb (74 min) or 700 Mb (80 min) CD-RWs? The latter is recommended, all the more so than I have never come across a CD-RW that supported overburning (3 extra minutes, ie. 30 mb roughly, was the best I got, media gets permanently damaged if one attempts some serious overburning)

IceBreaker, I do not want to disappoint you, but the problem was not in pre-gap at all.
Alcohol Developers told me that they are using another method because pre-gap is not supported by many CD-RWs.
The problem was the ATIP. It was telling the game that the plugged source is a CD-R, and SafeDisk (SafeDisk 2) has an ability to UNDERSTAND whether the source is a CD-R or CD-ROM.
There an Alcohol 120% option that allows you to HIDE ATIP, making SafeDisk think that its CD-ROM.
Its NOT emulation, once you enable the option, you do not have to run Alcohol 120% to run the game.
IT WORKS NOW!

Ghost in the Machine?
 

So it seems the problem was simpler than I thought, sacrebleu!

Disappointed I am not - your goal wuz to defeat this Safedisk 2.8 sh*t, right ? :D

However puzzled I am - U claim you don't need any sort of active emulation to hide ATIP since you don't have 2 run Booze 120%

About this I am more than skeptical: in fact my guess is, even though U don't run Alcohol, there is still some sort of active program (or part of a program, like .dll or something) running in the background which disables any software's ability to seek ATIP. In other words, emulation is still active hehe...
But there is a simpler, FAR simpler alternative which should allow you to do without such emulation and spare the extra mem used to this effect:

DON'T RUN YOUR BACKUP IN A CD-WRITER! :p

Indeed CD/DVD-readers can't read ATIP, only burners can do that. So if U run your backup in a CD-reader, the game won't be able to tell between CD-ROM and CD-R, regardless of whether an emulation is running or not.

By the way, I didn't know safedisk checks ATIP - this must be but a recent feature (safedisk 2.8 & later)

As I C, Alcohol doesn't support pregap reading - the losers :D . In case you do run into a pregap prob, apart from Discjuggler (expen$ive) and Blindwrite (fickle...), Discdump also supports pregap reading, and it's freeware!! In fact, for all non-hardware protection (ie. schemes other than Securom 4.8+ and Starforce 1/2/3), it is said that nothing beats the Discdump/Fireburner combo

Burn what can't be burnt, Liteon rulez!!!

Quote:

There are 10 types of people in this world - those who understand binary and those who don't

I checked all my background services, and startup - nothing new. This ATIP thing is hidden by editing registry settings, I am sure.
How can a program tell whether the CD is a CD-R or CD-ROM? (I guess the metal and plastic thing comes in now)
Also, Alcohol Development said that pre-gap is not the only way to get things done, they are using another way which works!
They say it does read pre-gap in a way, maybe not like other programs.

Yeah, ALcohol or any other thing like IMAPI is NOT an active service on my machine, I tweaked it for gaming, so I only have 8 CRUCIAL services, none are related to Alcohol or any emulation. I got nothing in my startup.

Yeah, I surely can run a CD in my DVD-ROM, its just that I thought that if a CD-RW cannot read it - its screwed!

ATIP tip
 

Not everything shows up in the services list (ie. loaded DLLs). 4 example, if you set one Virtual drive in Alcohol - and even mount an image - and exit Alcohol, this drive will be available in Windows without having to run Alcohol and without your being able to find anything in the taskbar/services list!!!

You just said it in your previous post: the prog simply reads the ATIP (if CD is in a burner). ATIP contains information on CD media type, etc... Quite simple in fact, there is no need for a built-in subatomic particle-analyser or whatever to check metal/plastic :D :D :D

The Alcohol guy who told U that must have been at the bottle all right :D . There is no such thing as reading data 'in a way' - either it is read 1:1, or it is not. Simple, non?

So, how is that I made a 1:1 copy (or maybe just a working copy?) without pre-gap reading if there was one that is crucial?

Also, you are telling me that ATIP detects what kind of media is being used - so, how does it know what kind of media is used if there is no analyzer???

It was not the Alcohol guy who told me that Alcohol read pre-gap, it was someone else, the Alcohol guy (they all must be drunk...) told me "Yes, pre-gap is a solution, but it is not a great solution, Why? Becuase not all drives can read it. Alcohol Development chose a different solution for this, that works fine with SafeDisc protected games including the latest version of SafeDisc."

The copy you previously made wuz just a WORKING copy, pregap is not needed if U run your backup in a drive that can't read pregap.


As 4 ATIP you may have misunderstood: ATIP IS data, present on the CD (at the very beginning of it in fact). This data consists of media type (tells whether media is a CD-R or CD-RW), maximum allowed write speed, CD size , etc... Of course this data is read-only and cannot be modified (ie burning on a CD-R or CD-RW won't change ATIP, which makes sense...). ATIP is written (probably pressed) on the media during factory manufacturing. Of course, the burner, upon insertion of a CD, "trusts" the content of the ATIP. If an unscrupulous manufacturer makes a 4X CD-R but indicates '8X' and 'CD-RW'-type on its ATIP, the burner will think that it can rewrite on the CD-R, and write at 8X!!! This sort of rip-off is not uncommon when it comes to generic/low-end media of doubtful quality found on the market. It's a big cruel world out there U know...:(