As ive said ive not had any problems with any SF protected games like others are having.

I will boycott SF as well!
If the problems or 'intrusions' Starforce where made public then lots more people will know about it and SF will get a bad reputaion because of it.
A bad reputaion is alomst as bad a gaining no profit because those two are connected. Think about it!

Boycotts might have worked a hundred years ago, but in today's corporate society they are obsolete. I don't think the 20 or so people in this topic are going to do anything about StarForce by not bying their products, it won't even be noticeable on the sale figures. Not even thousand people would be able to stop SF, sorry to say.

Ask yourself if what you are trying to achieve will have any effect, and be realistic about what you think.

Woooooooooo! negative vibes man, negative vibes, we are all doomed.

Everyone 'one' person from these forums tells 'five' friends about the intrusive Starforce Protection! Every one of those 'five' tells another 'five' of their friends and so on and so on! It will take time but it can happen?
I once read somewhere on these forums that quite obviously the protection makers do scan forums like these! They will see that people dont like the idea of the protection being so intrusive! But still they will not change what they are doing!
But, just like everything these days, someone will take this whole intrusive idea into a court room! Then you may see some sort of change?
The change has to start somewhere, one voice needs to grow into two, the two into four and from there it just keeps growing untill those voices together become very loud!
Surely as many more people, (even the ones who know nothing about protections etc) will start experiencing problems with their computers thru Starforce. They may not know at the time what is the cause of the problems!
But they to will either go to the place of purchase or even search the internet and they will be told or discover it is actually Starforce which is causing them all the troubles!
Then slowly, but surely, there will be many more people boycotting Starforce games!
It may take 1 year it may take 5 years, it may be quicker it may longer? But it will happen! Many more will join the idea of either boycotting Starforce games or those people will just go and buy a console machine!
Lets band together and turn this thread into a thread which has the 180 000 views! Even better let this thread grow into one which reaches 1 million views! Then and only then may we see some sort of protection that will do what it is meant to do and that is to protect the game! Not invade our systems and be destructive! That in my opinion borders on being a virus!!

Bravo Grumpy, very well said.

Here’s a bit of info for you. X2 the threat, the Euro version, having the SF virus, Egosoft the developers where asked by the publishers Quicksilver to remove the protection from the game, and they have. You can now download a unprotected exe file from the Egosoft web site, X2 is now completely unprotected.
Now, could it be that the boycotting and complaints are having more of a effect than we know. :)

Funny that since its publishers who put on the protections as they are the ones that distribute the game, packaging etc.

Yer it is isn’t it? Maybe they just give the .exe which, btw, is Multilanguage to Egosoft to distribute, dunno really, all I know is it's there and ready for D/L and "Burnit" one of the Devs said that they where asked by the publishers to remove the protection.

And why would a publisher remove the protection from a game over a year old unless, unless he had canceled his contract with the makers of SF.

Lol, ask Ubisoft and their starforce protected Splinter cell chaos theory, imho the trend is to make games protected with a real protection against leechers and that is truly working and reflected in their profits.
Who give a **** of what leechers boycott, you would have never bought it if it was not starforce protected anyway... and with starforce, if you really want to play a game without having to wait sometimes weeks for a crack, you buy it.
Moreover it is harder to sell a pirate version of a game with such a protection and that's also what a publisher wants from a protection.

Best regards,
Sensi

@Sensi
Lets just get one thing straight, I do not 'Leech' games!
I will not buy a Starforce protected game simply because of the 'Virus' like features it installs onto my system!
Some games are just not worth the headaches they give! ;)

@Sensi
Buy it, Ha!, that' just the point, if I buy the game it comes with SF protection and that is what we don't want. If the game comes without SF then I for one, would not hesitate to buy any game I was interested in.
In short we don't want to pirate games with all there hacks and cracks and inability to update, we want to buy them, but the publisher though his greed wont let us.

At the end of the day how many of your actually read the EULA before saying yes.

Perhaps you should read it, it tells all what Starforce is going to do, and you all agreed to it. :P

@Dabhand
You are wrong!
I have just finished reading the EULA for V8 Supercars, Obscure, Soldiers Heroes of WW2 and Street Racing Syndicate. As you may well know these are all Starforce protected games! Nowhere, I repeat 'Nowhere', does it say Starforce will be installed on my system! Nowhere does it say a hidden program or Drivers will be installed on my system! Nowhere!
If these companys responsible were not trying to hide the fact they are secretly installing hidden software onto our systems they would gladly state in the EULA what their intentions are!
In the V8 Supercars game manual, inside of the front cover, it clearly states:
"This Codemasters game is protected by the FADE protection system. If you purchase an illegal copy of the game, you will be able to play it - but not for long. As you play, the gameplay of a pirated copy will degrade."
Now if they are not hiding anything why dont they go on to tell us about Starforce? Because they are doing it illegally!! Nowhere do they mention Starforce!
In the SRS EULA they mention:
"Limitation of liability
To the maximum extent permitted by applicable law, in no event will publisher or its third-party suppliers or distributors be liable for any direct, indirect, special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of the use of or inability to use the licensed product, including, without limitation, damages for lost profits, loss of data, loss of good will, work stoppage, computer failure or malfunction, even if advised of the possibility thereof, and regardless of the legal or equitable theory (contract, tort, or otherwise) upon which the claim is based. In no event shall publisher be liable to user in any amount exceeding the amount of the license fee paid to publisher."
Again 'Nowhere' does it mention Starforce is going to be installed on my system! But they do mention the possibility of something causing 'computer failure or malfunction'!
Hmmm, now I do wonder what is going to cause the failure or malfunction? I do believe many of us are aware of what is going to do this! Yes, Starforce!
This is their way of trying to protect themselves! But how can this be taken seriously when I could use the argument that nothing about Starforce protection being installed is mentioned in any of the documents they have supplied!
I have followed this Starforce argument/discussion from the beginning, and I now believe you really are sitting on your high horse about this! I watched you come on board this forum and believed you showed enough intelligence and knowledge to be a great asset to these forums. I have spoken with you before and found you to be a likeable person. But I now believe you are being very difficult and unintelligent about this subject! You have now stated something about 'reading the EULA' which in my opinion is just not correct!!
So I now ask the question: "Have you infact read the EULA?" I believe not!
If you have found the words "Starforce Protection will be installed" in another game EULA then by all means send it to me and I will gladly appolagize for what I have said about you being difficult!
But untill then please dont say things that are not correct! Nowhere does it say in the EULA that Starforce will be installed!

Yeah, sure! Even the first posts about problems with the new Starforce system in other forums were about Starforce being installed without its own EULA displayed or Starforce being mentioned in the game's EULA...

I read the EULA of Stronghold2 and I can't see a word mentioning STARFORCE. So can we sue firefly studio? :D

@DABhand
Do you by any chance have your foot in your mouth? :)

Step 1:

LIMITED SOFTWARE WARRANTY AND LICENSE AGREEMENT

YOUR USE OF THIS SOFTWARE IS SUBJECT TO THIS LIMITED SOFTWARE WARRANTY AND LICENSE AGREEMENT (THE "AGREEMENT") AND THE TERMS SET FORTH BELOW. THE "SOFTWARE" INCLUDES ALL SOFTWARE INCLUDED WITH THIS AGREEMENT, THE ACCOMPANYING MANUAL (S), PACKAGING AND OTHER WRITTEN, ELECTRONIC OR ON-LINE MATERIALS OR DOCUMENTATION, AND ANY AND ALL COPIES OF SUCH SOFTWARE AND ITS MATERIALS. BY OPENING THE SOFTWARE, INSTALLING, AND/OR USING THE SOFTWARE AND ANY OTHER MATERIALS INCLUDED WITH THE SOFTWARE, YOU HEREBY ACCEPT THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE WITH 2K GAMES ("LICENSOR").

Step 2:

THE SOFTWARE UTILITIES.

The Software may contain a level editor or other similar type tools, assets and other materials (the "Software Utilities") that permit you to construct or customize new game levels and other related game materials for personal use in connection with the Software ("Customized Game Materials"). In the event the Software contains such Software Utilities, the use of the Software Utilities is subject to the following additional terms, conditions and restrictions:

(a) All Customized Game Materials created by you are exclusively owned by LICENSOR and/or its licensors (as the case may be) and you hereby transfer, assign and convey to LICENSOR all right, title and interest in and to the Customized Game Materials and LICENSOR and its permitted licensors may use any Customized Game Materials made publicly available to you for any purpose whatsoever, including but not limited to for purposes of advertising and promoting the Software;
(b) You will not use or permit third parties to use the Software Utilities and the Customized Game Materials created by you for any commercial purposes, including but not limited to distributing, leasing, licensing, renting, selling, or otherwise exploiting, transferring or assigning the ownership of such Customized Game Materials;
(c) Customized Game Materials must be distributed solely for free; provided, that you may contact LICENSOR for a license to commercially exploit the Customized Game Materials which LICENSOR may grant or deny in its sole discretion;
(d) Customized Game Materials shall not contain modifications to any other executable files;
(e) Customized Game Materials must be used alone and can be created if the Customized Game Materials will be used exclusively in combination with the commercially released retail version of the Software.
(f) Customized Game Materials cannot contain libelous, defamatory or other illegal material, material that is scandalous or invades the rights of privacy or publicity of any third party, or contain any trademarks, copyright-protected work or other property of third parties (without a valid license); and
(g) All Customized Game Materials must contain the proper credits to the authors of the Customized Game Materials and must indicate that LICENSOR is not the author of the Customized Game Materials with additional language that "THIS MATERIAL IS NOT MADE, GUARANTEED OR SUPPORTED BY THE PUBLISHER OF THE SOFTWARE OR ITS AFFILIATES."


Now the words Starforce does not indeed been told, but Starforce is incoporated with the game (software as said in EULA)

1st Step, you agreed to all software installed.

2nd Step, it says you agreed to install and they cannot be held responsible for any misuse or damage. As does it do in conjunction with this part also.

IN NO EVENT WILL LICENSOR BE LIABLE FOR SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES RESULTING FROM POSSESSION, USE OR MALFUNCTION OF THE SOFTWARE, INCLUDING DAMAGES TO PROPERTY, LOSS OF GOODWILL, COMPUTER FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION AND, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, DAMAGES FOR PERSONAL INJURIES, EVEN IF LICENSOR HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. LICENSOR’S LIABILITY SHALL NOT EXCEED THE ACTUAL PRICE PAID FOR USE OF THE SOFTWARE. SOME STATES/COUNTRIES DO NOT ALLOW LIMITATIONS ON HOW LONG AN IMPLIED WARRANTY LASTS AND/OR THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, SO THE ABOVE LIMITATIONS AND/OR EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF LIABILITY MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. THIS WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS, AND YOU MAY HAVE OTHER RIGHTS THAT VARY FROM JURISDICTION TO JURISDICTION.


We may not like it, but unfortunately you all agreed to it.

@Dabhand
What a complete load of ****e!
When they say 'software' most would presume they are talking about the game as being the said software!
You are asked during the game install, "Do you want to install (ie) V8 Supercars?"
Do you want to install (ie) DirectX9?
Do you want to install Gamespy?
Do you want to install the Acrobat Reader?
All software which we are told about!
But nowhere are we asked "Do you want to install Starforce?"
This, and you damn well know it, is not what they mean by software!
If they had nothing to hide they would also ask "Do you want to install Starforce?"

If game publishers had nothing to hide, they would've already created icons for most copy protection systems, printed them on the product box, and added a URL (yes, outside, on the box!) where the (potential) customer may read more information about the copy protection, including but not limited to known problems, before actually purchasing the item. (The same goes for copy-protected audio CD's, e.g. ones that cannot be played in car CD players, exactly because of the copy protection!)

@Joe
Yes, exactly! I agree with what you say, 100%. ;)

Ive BEEN boycotting them.......and the only two I miss are SH3 and GTR,because I got a PC to fool with simulations.

But really,if you want a POPULAR boycott,start a site,and keep an up-to-date list of the current games using it.

I'd personally like to see a class action brought against them,and maybe get a law that makes companies state ON THE BOX what protections are used.

Its not likely to happen,but neither is me buy any game I know that uses starcrud.

If EA ever goes that route,alot more people will discover the nasty side of it.

Great discussion guys,most everything else has been said....;)

@CPUYoda
cdsteam already keeps a list of all the games which use Starforce. ;)

I have been continuing my research, and done quite a bit of probing.
And no zhit guys more and more people are saying no to SF protected games every day. The name StarForce is rapidly becoming a dirty word in the computer community.
Unfortunately my knowledge of web design is limited to f**k all, or I might have had a go at making my own Anti Starforce community web site. Anyway it's a very good idea.
Keep it up, spread the good word, and remember you are not alone.
Let's bury these SF b******ds, so that they never make another penny at our expense.

See thats great,but I'd never heard of it....

I generally try my best to find out when demos appear(most SF games have SF in the DEMOS too?!?)

Kudos guys!

Cmon Grumpy I know your more clever than that, the protection is part of the game which you install.

Which is what is mentioned by ALL SOFTWARE in the EULA.

DABhand,

See the applications Grumpy has listed:

- V8 Supercars is by whatever game publisher (don't remember);
- DirectX is by Micro$oft;
- Gamespy is by whatever other publisher;
- Acrobat Reader is by Adobe.

These applications have been developed and published by different companies, therefore, their EULA's are definitely not the same. Actually, before installing them, you can see their own EULA's displayed and you're required to accept them, don't you?

Starforce is by Starforce Technologies or whatever. Another developer and publisher. Why isn't its own EULA displayed? Especially, that, while:

- DirectX is a well-known component of the operating system, is present on pretty much any Windows PC and does nothing bad to your system;
- Gamespy and Acrobat Reader are also old (not obsolete!), respected applications and do nothing bad,

Starforce is a new, unproven (khm!) technology and it is already known to cause minor or major problems.

So?

Joe

@Dabhand
You really are being stupidly pig headed about this! I dont know exactly what you are trying to prove?
It does NOT say in the EULA that you accept the installing of any sort of Protection! It says Software, that in itself is misleading! The more you point out the more I believe it would not stand up in a court of law!
They are hiding behind the word Software! It is illegal to mislead or decieve people!
You are showing yourself to be a right twat! :rolleyes:

Prediction: Yes I know what you are going to say Dabhand! "It says software in the EULA and you agree to it when you install!" yeh yeh yeh! :rolleyes:

Know Punkbuster?

Every game that has PB Anticheat software included asks you if you want to install it and even displays its own EULA.
And since nearly every Server has PB enabled, I would call PB a _mandatory_ part of the software (game).

Starforce is a pest I hate it

I have two games protected by sf3 one I could crack with a nocd and the other I never coudn't crack it

I hate it for this reasons:

I have 3 Drives:

My DVD ROm drive take ages to validate the original disk (more than one minute) I thinks that could be bad for the life of the drives

MY external cd-rw drive never read it it always says that I should use another drive

the only drive that can validate faster the disk on my computer its and old and crappy phillips burner

and also mentioning that when is checking the disk starforce overheats a lot my cpu

that why I hate it damn starfoce

@dabhand

You can argue semantics all you want, but when it comes to the bottom line, when the publishers deliver starforce to you, they try and conceal it. There is no declaration that the software is protected by starforce, and no specific information included about the effects of it. Under your legalese, it would be perfectly acceptable for programmers to include a virus with the game and call it "software". It also doesnt fall under the category of software utility, as starforce is hardly for the personal use of the buyer. The ability to ignore all responsibility for products via disclaimers seems to be making the world a cold and inhuman place. If you want to remain unempowered against large corporations, fine, accept your fate.

Ok ill finalise on this.

It is rather simple. The protections are part of the game which you are installing.

All protections have been done the same way from securom, to ProtectCD etc.

So when your all moaning about SF why not go the full hog and bycott the other protections while your at it?

And to be honest, all ive seen with people who have problems with SF is the ones trying to run a copy of it and not the original.

Im not saying everyone who has an original should be 100% working, in the PC market nothing is 100%, with different specs of machines etc.

But ill guarantee you, people who have it illegally will be the ones with the most problems.

And again, no matter what you say, game protections are part of a game it comes packaged with it, no if's or but's or maybe's, it has been and always will be.

I too will finalize on this!
All we are trying to say is we should be made aware an intrusive Protection is being installed as well as the actual game etc. The EULA should really say something in regards to the word 'Protection'. It is the game developers right to protect thier investment but it is also the consumers right to have all the facts and info supplied to them in a non misleading manner. The word 'Software' is misleading!
Many valid points have been made in these Starforce threads, and everyone has made others more aware of what may happen to thier systems.

@ Dabhand
Thanks for your arguments, before any decent discussion (come argument) can happen thier needs to be two sides, and you supplied the other side. As much as I dont agree with your side I really can acknowledge where you are coming from. But I still dont understand why you cant see what we are trying to say?
I do hope thier are no hard feelings. You have your views and we all have ours, and everyone is entitled to thier views. (however heated we may become expressing those views! ;)

I agree 100% with both Grumpy & DABhand, both valid points. I would tend to lean towards Grumpy because as its stands, we are left open for publishers to install anything on our pc under the term "software".
My Idea is one that involves both Grumpy & DABhand taken even more time out of there life to help us all and develope the "perfect" protection between them :p

Alias

IMHO the problem is that people just CANNOT buy enough to satisfy game companies. I don't think they need to complain.
For example, how many games are released by EA every year? I don't know, but on their website, they got like 30 games in the list of current ones (only PC platform). And that's only EA. If EA releases about 30 games a year, how many people (buyers) are needed to match their calculations? I don't want to say anything wrong, but be shure that it's a damn lot. Germany for example (which is one of the big markets for video games), 25 million copies were sold last year (only games). That means that almost one third of all germans bought a video game. But we all know that it's far from being one third of all germans playing video games (at least, I hope that all of you know that). So 25 million copies sold is everything but "not enough".
So even with companies releasing 30 games a year, 25 million copies sold should be enough to cover every game makers expenses (again, for the german market only), because with about 500 major game releases a year (not only PC, but also consoles), every single game could sell 50.000 copies. Just think about that.
I think the main problem is that software companies just don't seem to get it that you can't make 50.000 copies with ANYTHING. If a game sucks, nobody is going to buy it, no matter what efforts it took to develope it. And I don't think you can blame the customers for that.

Edit: I too won't buy any more SF protected games. I got Codename: Panzers and Trackmania here, I had problems with both of them and I won't accept some strange STARFORCE COMPANY secretly doing something to my system I would even allow Microsoft to do...

Give this a read it's worth it.


http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000477025364/

@dajunka
Nice find! Thanks, Its nice to know we are not alone. ;)

I have an idea how to make cracking Splinter Cell3: Chaos Theory a lot easier. On www.direct2drive.com you can download the game for 50$. But this version has a modified Starforce3. You obviously cannot download the whole DVD with all it's hardware protections and physical structure. And u can even mount this version, since u download it to your harddrive. On other forums ppl even confirm that this version HAS a different, much milder starforce version, without serious DVD checking, only online validation system(just like Steam).The only problem is the hardware-code checking and issues on cd-keys.
Even tough this D2D service is only avaible in North-America, I think this could be the key to crack the game at last. Tricking that validating system shouldn't be so hard - Half Life 2's Steam was quite easily bypassed -. Game costs 50$ there, but some cracker groups should try my idea I think. Any opinions?

steam easily bypassed? yeh right (ie: you are talking out of your arse)

starforce
 

I could be wrong about all this but here is my point of view.

Yup, the way it's going one day buying a PC game would even more expensive and installation - a nightmare. Sucks hard. This would probably make more and more poeple choose a console instead of a PC. This sucks even harder. This whole thing with protection and piracy is a vicious circle. Like all things it has its start. Back in the old days PC games were made by enthusiasts and without the idea of earing tons of money. Slowly but surely some poeple couldn't have helped noticing there's a lot of potential in the PC games industry, so they said to themselves: 'Hey, let's make a profit out of this.' And it began. Piracy most likely began as a way to prove onesself and without the idea to be in the way of sales. But as human beings and competition being a part of our blood, more and more 'pirates' turned up. The baby gaming industry felt threatend by these acts of 'piracy'. Here is the turning point. Instead of sitting down and thinking it over (or maybe not thinking it over enough) they decided that the solution should be game protection and higher prices. 'Pirates' see this as a challenge and the wheel started rolling. I could describe it as a game of PONG. Instead of making nice offers, publishers choose the hard way.
Example in my home country of Bulgaria: yup, piracy heaven there, accoridng to many people. True, in a way. But let's think why this is happening. People with a monthly salory of around 200 euro simply CAN'T afford to buy legal software. Let's take Windows as a subject. Instead of lowering prices a lot and thus gaining customers and some profit, the piracy hunters keep prices high and thus making poeple turn to warez and, obviously, depriving from even the little money they could have earned. In fact i DO know people who would buy 1 or 2 pieces of software either because they would like to support the deserving developers or simply to know they have at least 1 piece of legal software. In a place like this a legal copy is somewhat prestige BUT only if the prices were acceptable.
Piracy will exist as long as there's something to crack (pirateize?). Companies are trying to STOP piracy instead of trying to decrease its effect. That's the mistake. The harder you strike, the angrier your opponent will get and the harder he would try to strike back. Human nature.

Software developers and publishers DO deserve support and NOT capitalists. Today's such companies are more like capitalists than developers and publishers.