Beware of BioWare!

[Machina]

"Hi everyone,

My name is Keehwan Her and I am the Atari producer for Mysteries of Westgate (MoW) among other D&D products. Most of you know that the release of Mysteries of Westgate has been delayed because of ongoing development of a new security system. Near the end of MoW’s development last year, we realized that the traditional protection of the .exe file would not work with it so we scrambled to find a reliable commercial method that would do the job. At the time, there was no solution that met our requirements. That is why, since the end of 2007, Atari has been working hard to develop a new security system that can be used not just for MoW but for all Atari products that need protection for data files without using the traditional route of wrapping the .exe file. Unfortunately, developing this system has taken longer than we anticipated and MoW’s release has suffered as a result, because it is the first product that will use this new system.

Atari has been working closely with Obsidian and Ossian to try to integrate the new system with NWN2 and MoW specifically. Although we wanted the security modifications to go out with Update 1.12, it simply was not ready in time so we unfortunately had no choice but to push it into Update 1.13.

I realize that many of you are anxious to get your hands on Mysteries of Westgate, and I know from firsthand experience that it is a fantastic adventure. MoW has been ready to ship for a while now and we are close to finalizing the new security system that will ensure that it has its proper day in the sun. In the meantime, we are working hard to keep cool information about the game coming.

Thank you,

-Keehwan"

[caki]

rofl

[Joe Forster/STA]

So the crackers will release a general software that removes the protection from the data files of Atari titles. (And, thus, make the game run faster...)

[acal3000]

He must be refering to this pile of crap

http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=623831&forum=122

Activation systems the most idiotic thing M$ invented that don't stop really piracy but make only things more difficult to to legitime users

And NWN2 was way horrible compared with NWN1

[wolfsrain]

I loved what Stardock did. No invasive protection, no activation, just a serial number and a game registration for support access(patches, bonus content). I have the Galactic Civilizations series from them, very happy with the way they handled things.
And one thing that I really don't understand. Bioware belongs to EA now, so why the hell Ossian it's present on the Bioware forums and not on the ATARI forums, because NWN2 it's an ATARI product. Also NWN2 was developped mostly by Obsidian which is pretty much an independent game studio at the moment. Why not use Obsidian's forums??? If I would be a bigwig at EA I would stop access at the forums for the other publishers/developpers.

[DABhand]

Thats why your not a bigwig at EA :P hehehe

[Pigdog Ratsnake]

EA is going to kick Atari in the **** for this. Or maybe EA will just buy Atari and make Atari's board of directors into street prostitutes.

Besides that, if you are familiar with anything Atari has done -- the modern fake Atari, not the good old Atari -- then you know that their copy protection system is going to be a comedy laugh riot, fun for the whole family and full of bugs. Atari develop something? They can't even patch most of their games! And we are supposed to be surprised that it has been "delayed"? Bwahhahahaa. Yeah, take a guess why it's been delayed. Atari doesn't have any real programmers, it hired Devry University dropouts who only know how to "code" in HTML.

[nando2002]

Mind your language - you don't need to insult others just because you don't like them.

Atari was the creator of many consoles like 2600, 5200, etc and many games - good old days :)
Atari after the disaster years ago with the Tetris game - Nintendo wins the battle against Atari in the Tetris game - the company change a lot. Nowadays they are a publisher - just like Blizzard is coming to be and others will follow - and so they don't need to create game but to distribute them. The bugs are not related to them but the devs companies Atari supports. If Atari or other publisher don't support devs companies (paying them to produce games) you don't play games.
What Atari is trying to do is just what JoWood did/does: create a custom protection system to protect their investment.

[wolfsrain]

I don't remember Jowood doing an invasive copyprotection. Today's Atari it's not Atari anymore. And from this fall it will be completely integrated in Infogrames as they've bought the rest of the shares. So Infogrames owns now the whole Atari. I've had a great deal of respect for the old Atari, but the new Atari it's just a company who uses the brand. Nothing else.
Atari promised the DLC for Test Drive Unlimited on PC. They've delivered a bastard product. You can only download the product and activate 3 times. LIke you will install the game only 3 times. NWN2 it has more patches than the first(way more). No cumulative updates. You need to have a lot of space to install the patches. Crashes due to the poorly implemented protection which hampers the game. What they fix in one patch they are braking in the next one, while trying to update the protection.
So I'd wish That EA take the DND license from Wizards of The Coast or buy Infogrames(which it's not doing so bright either, they've barey managed to go on profit).
And unfortunately the big companies would rather have a full control over the products they are publishing.
So my support goes to companies like Stardock, which are trying to offer a good game at a decent price, a game made to work on most of the systems, with no invasive copy protection and only the need to register the game to have access to the support section and some extra content. I'd like to see more companies adoptin this model. But they would rather blame the pirates for every failure. And saying that the today's people prefer short games with fabulous graphics. But you can't play graphics, and most of us would rather have more than 4 hours of gameplay(Frontline : Fuel of War, The Turning Point: Fall of Liberty, just to name a few such games) and something that wouldn't make us upgrade our PC at about 3-4 months.

[nando2002]

JoWood develop his own protection which include in the games it publish. Intrusive or not they create a protection just like Atari is doing - each one follows his own path.

I still believe in big publishers like Sierra, THQ, JoWood, etc. Even if some of the products they publish don't worth a cent.
The support is a formality for the publisher if the dev company has his own forum, ex:
CoH/OF/DoW: Relicnews
World in Conflict: Massgate
Universe at War: Petroglyphgames
The Witcher: thewitcherforum
etc.
The Witcher, Never Winter Nights, and others has his own space in Atari forums but is useless in content comparative to the devs forums.

Many others uses the publisher forum space as HQ for they customers like:
Phenomic (Spellforce) uses JoWood forums
Eden Studios (TDU), Eugen Systems (AoW) uses Atari forums
etc.

[TippeX]

jowood had a bit more 'skill' though... even if their protections were very intensive (and occasionally buggy)... didn't really help them much in the end though...

[nando2002]

This conversation leads me to a story (false but true at the same time):
An engineer's competition between USA and Japan was raised to found who can create a machine to make the most thin gold wire in all the world. In the end no one could create that machine but the japaneses develop another machine that will drill the most thin gold wire in the world.

[AstralWanderer]

I loved what Stardock did. No invasive protection, no activation,Excuse me? Are you talking about THIS Stardock (http://www.stardock.com/StardockActivationInfo.asp)? Who made a big deal about GalCiv not including any CD checks but then slipped in online authentication on later patches?

Online authentication is, IMHO, far worse than CD checks since it gives the publisher the ability to arbitrarily terminate your usage of their software. Now Stardock's online activation may be less oppressive than most (and certainly better than Bioware's NWN Premium Modules though Atari is apparently the real culprit there) but they have made it clear that they will deny users the right to resell their software (see point 3 of their Activation FAQ (http://forums.stardock.com/122873/page/9)).

In my case, it took 3 weeks (and 4 attempts by Stardock support) before I received a valid key for a game I purchased legitimately (I now use a crack from GCW to avoid having to repeat this process). The one silver lining was that I found this applied to their other products, resulting in me boycotting them completely (saving the cost of an Object Desktop renewal and GalCiv expansion packs).

[wolfsrain]

That was the case for the first GalCiv indeed. For the second, I never had that problem. Neither for Sins of a the Solar Empire. But to get their patches, usually you have to get the game registered

[DABhand]

Online authentication is, IMHO, far worse than CD checks since it gives the publisher the ability to arbitrarily terminate your usage of their software.

Only would be worse if you didnt buy the game itself, or like to sell copies of your originals to friends.

So one would believe you dont like this method because you adopt one of the 2 things I mentioned.

[nando2002]

I think it's more related to statistic than in user control/software limitations.
It's a must for every company try to keep their customers happy, what better way to know your customers than check in when they play.
How many times they log and how long they stay logged.
If many customers stop login for a long period after being logged almost every day (ABC Stats) they can give something to catch their atention again (more maps, mod kit, news, etc. ) and makes them play again often.

This option (Login Autentication) is marketing behind.
Take a look at Relic (Company of Heroes), when they see less people online they create a custom map competition 1 or 2 per year until they launch a new game. Simple but efficient.

In the other hand... they must provide a way to play the game without log in - case you want to play it in the middle of nowhere without net connection or the server are down.

[AstralWanderer]

That was the case for the first GalCiv indeed. For the second, I never had that problem. Neither for Sins of a the Solar Empire. But to get their patches, usually you have to get the game registeredAccording to this changelog (http://forums.galciv2.com/154562), Dark Avatar requires activation ("Fixed error where invalid information was being returned by the activation code in Win98 and Windows ME by adding alternate code if the first instance failed.") - are you sure you didn't just miss it? As for SoaSE, Stardock is the publisher - it was developed by Ironclad.Only would be worse if you didnt buy the game itself, or like to sell copies of your originals to friends.Ah yes, the old "if you dont like it, you must be a warez d00d!" argument. Since that comment suggests that you've not considered this issue in any depth, allow me to present the following scenarios where online activation causes problems for legitimate users: Game requires activation but cannot connect (due to a fault with your connection, your ISP, the game company's ISP or a problem with their server). Result: you get locked out. Game has be to installed on an Internet connected computer - if you prefer to keep your gaming system offline (thereby reducing the need to run performance-sapping security software) then you can't use it, full stop. Users limited to dialup or mobile phone Internet access (where connections may be charged by the second) incur extra expense due to online activation - those lacking a permanent connection (e.g. living in mobile accommodation) can't activate at all. As noted in my post above (please take the time to read the links), online activation allows companies to impose usage restrictions that may be unfair or even unlawful. Stardock denying users their "first sale" rights is one example - Valve permabanning Steam accounts (causing customers to lose access to all previously purchased games) in cases where a credit card chargeback has been made is another. Privacy issues - a game that "phones home" frequently allows the publisher to keep track of your whereabouts. It also opens the possibility for it to send other information about you or your system (with or without your consent). Finally, what happens when companies stop activating? Just as publishers aren't going to release patches forever, they aren't going to continue to activate forever either (even if the process is simple, it still means support overheads for them). As such, unless a company chooses to release an activation-free version, you have a time-limited product.

[wolfsrain]

Then why don't use the same anger on the ATARI forums in the NWN section? Remember their premium modules? You pay a nice sum for all of them and end up with a product that it will be useless later on. And yes I've missed the 1.6 patch, as at the time when it was released I've had enough of GalCiv2.

[DABhand]

Game requires activation but cannot connect (due to a fault with your connection, your ISP, the game company's ISP or a problem with their server). Result: you get locked out. - Any game that ive seen that requires activation online has usually got a phone option.

Game has be to installed on an Internet connected computer - if you prefer to keep your gaming system offline (thereby reducing the need to run performance-sapping security software) then you can't use it, full stop. - As said before for phone option , if none the box for the software would say "INTERNET CONNECTION REQUIRED"

Users limited to dialup or mobile phone Internet access (where connections may be charged by the second) incur extra expense due to online activation - those lacking a permanent connection (e.g. living in mobile accommodation) can't activate at all. - Errr how cant they activate, if they have access they can activate. And if not as said already they have a phone option

As noted in my post above (please take the time to read the links), online activation allows companies to impose usage restrictions that may be unfair or even unlawful. Stardock denying users their "first sale" rights is one example - Valve permabanning Steam accounts (causing customers to lose access to all previously purchased games) in cases where a credit card chargeback has been made is another. - Permabanning for what? Bot use? Trying to use a known key for another game? To get permanently banned requires the end user to have broken the EULA that you agreed to. As for denying your sale rights that is bollocks, you bought a product they have to make sure that you have access to the media if bought over the net in download form or send you media if ordered through the net. If it requires activation then it does, once done its done, if your legit then there is no worries what so ever

Privacy issues - a game that "phones home" frequently allows the publisher to keep track of your whereabouts. It also opens the possibility for it to send other information about you or your system (with or without your consent). -This is obviously talk you have read about and seen rumours about, if any game/software is taking information other than information about the game it is illegal for them to do so and they are monitored alot, they dont do it its an old tale used by warez users to excuse their thefts as if they are the good guys. Microsoft is the biggest scapegoat for this, they only retrieve information relevent to the service your using.

Finally, what happens when companies stop activating? Just as publishers aren't going to release patches forever, they aren't going to continue to activate forever either (even if the process is simple, it still means support overheads for them). As such, unless a company chooses to release an activation-free version, you have a time-limited product. - If they do fold/bankrupt etc then they have to supply a way for you to play your software in the future, by patch or by allowing people to have new media sent to them in various forms.

Answers inside quote

[wolfsrain]

Mass Effect uses SecuROM and requires an online activation for the first time that you play it. Each copy of Mass Effect comes with a CD Key which is used for this activation and for registration here at the BioWare Community. Mass Effect does not require the DVD to be in the drive in order to play, it is only for installation. After the first activation, SecuROM requires that it re-check with the server within ten days (in case the CD Key has become public/warez'd and gets banned). Just so that the 10 day thing doesn't become abrupt, SecuROM tries its first re-check with 5 days remaining in the 10 day window. If it can't contact the server before the 10 days are up, nothing bad happens and the game still runs. After 10 days a re-check is required before the game can run.

And that's the latest bright idea from EA. Do you remember Two Worlds or Bioshock? Their activation checks were removed in no time. The only hurt people were, you've guessed it, us, the people who actually paid for the game.

[acal3000]

Sorry I know You gonna hate but I have to agree with Online Activation is bad

I hate Online Activation too . It's worst than cd cheks and don't stop piracy either

I just see it like spyware. The game connect to the net automatically without user notification. And have also been cases when legitime users gte blocked by it

Also I have always hated Be On Line to play Offline (was one of the things i hated about HL2 some years back) , then years can pass game get old the publisher shutdown the activation server and get game get useless even for sp (like buying junk to be useless years later)

An people that download the game from torrent for example could not get access to patches etc, but get all copyprotection removed and won't have to to pass for all hassle legitime users have to pass and why people prefer the illegal way of doing thing coz the legal one is more difficult and should be the contrary

That was one of the reason I abandonned Windows XP/Vista and all that world and moved to Linux coz I got tired the big corporates like Micro$oft want to have the control of everything limiting what we can do and selling us commercial software in stores like if were trial versions. If people pay money for them deserve some control of it not all to the big corporates. All the the whole copyright laws are made to protect them from us but we as users don't have enough rights to protect us from them. People is paying for bought software NOT paying a rent for use it and then be cancelled for paranoids piracy warnings (that of course errors like these can happens very common on automated systems ) of just coz the publisher wanted cancel it. Like paying for a DATA CD/DVD full of nothing for users

And returning with these automated protection system I have seen errors like these toons of times even on bank proection systems. My mom have like lots of people an account bank she put his account to seeit on line and the protection and all padlokcs are way horrible. You type wrong you pass like after 3 tries you account get blocked ( but you think the block pass after some hours (like pther protection hack systems are) but hell no the account continue bloked you to call the damned tech line of the bank try you lik they ask you bunch or rare questions like what you favorite color, what you age, you son name as security question some lady or other people can just forget or fail thequestion try like mr criminal again re call they force you to send information data like ( your salary identification address and and junk again to prove you are yourself but heck you have make it from with some mail send to an employee from the bank that is occupied or don't make it much case you can't use even e your isp mail and the internet is supposed to avoid those long wats in banks etc but this horrible systems only make things more difficult for normal people where the thng my mo had to send the damned mail and like 3 times the bank emplpyee failed the damned support company mandatory request I suggest send that bank to hell. and retire her money but well she stayed there and thing made thing thtamaybe those damned suppotr idiot in the future wil want the fingerprint of the foots I said as joke but maybe will happen in the future While a real hacker can take down all that anti hack system and retire the money even more easy than the real account owner= and and M$ trying to say automated systems made completely obsolete manual ones (but NO an all aspects)

But returning to the talk

Also game companies always blame piracy for losing sales but don't mention other facts eithe that make loose sales: some games are a very bad quality why could not sell for that don't appeal the audience and since some years the the harcore game industry is decliving lots of people don't play so often anymore as the old atari arcade days. Most now seems to be on youtube or make another things. Also this newer thing about the trend of casual gamming is making harcore gamming losing sales and the pc market is most declived from all since several years (games on pc don't sells like 80's 90s used to) compared to console ones (or the console ones vs the same pc ported ones). Just look at big stores like Walmart/Sams or others the have very big section for consoles and very small one for pc games

So restrictives protections like on line activation only make things worst. Not All people in the world have geek patience to fix the game and make it work like most of us on this forums.i know the sys reqs of the game always to be checked before buy but a lot of people still don't do it (or are not familiarized with reqs in pc games or specially if play most on consoles and only buy a few pc games in their life) so will continue happens. Alao some game specification don't state clear if the activation is mandatory for SP of just for MP of get lost in the local language translation on certaion countries .Also I have known people in real life that have lazyness to update of defrag their hd or update thir antivirus so If they buy a game with this kind of intrusive thing it could very probable will get angry and won't spend even 2 days trying to make it work. If it's a parent who bought the game for his/her son won't want spend $30 or $40 to pay a technician to fix a game + technician generally don fix games Will probaly want to return it to store (NOT all stores in the world have a return policy) ,so they will probably put in their room, try to on sell of ebay or dumping somewhere and play a console game without all that on line activation junk or tech probs instead

[nando2002]

"Soryy I know You gonna hate but I have to agree with the Nando Guy and his anger in some point"
Me, anger?
where?
I just post about connection on-line and stats - where's the anger?

You must be referring "AstralWanderer" post.

[acal3000]

Yes you are right I edited my post

[wolfsrain]

Adding my own comments:
The big companies wnat their product to reach a larger categorie, but they always forget that the larger categories are what you call computer illiterates. They won't know if their PC meets the sysreq of the game that they've just bought due to some hype or aggressive marketing campaign. The hardcore gamer will always have their systems uptodate, will know where to look for their fixes, how to avoid sites that would give trouble to your PC and such. The casual gamer it's the one that considers Solitaire fun. Or games like the one published by companies like Big Fish Games, Reflexive Arcade and such. But those companies are very aware of the people who will buy their games. Companies that are selling casual games are aware that their customer are not computer geniuses or hardcore games. So their games are nice looking, working even on very old computers and not too hard to play.
Big companies are always talking about games reaching many people, but in the end they fail because they don't understand the casual gamer that they are trying to reach.
If you want to go on the casual games market, than you won't make multimillion budget title who is heavy on the system requirements. The casual gamer doesn't have the latest PC. Hell, you are lucky if he has a recent entry level model from a company like Dell or Gateway. So the big companies are failing to understand the very market that they are trying to reach. So their sales are taking a dump, and they think: it must be the goddamn pirates: let's enforce the copy protection. Well, no: treating your paying customers as potential criminals and making their life hard does not bring more sales indeed. And while I can agree with one activation and a later patch(after let's say two years, when the game gets old and the need for such measures it's gone) who would disable the activation, I can't agree with an online activation, staying online while playing single player games and having a recheck at avery 10 days. IF, I as a hardcore gamer and a pretty tolerant person I can accept a thing like online activation, I can't accept a combination like the one that EA wants to impose. If I've wanted a game that would require for me to stay online, I would play an MMO. End of story. Those being said, with regret I say, that I'll wait a few years until I'll buy games like Spore or Mass Effect. As any new protection, this one will have quite a few problems and sincerely I've had enough of playing the guinea pig for the gaming companies who are more concerned of implementing some new form of protection instead of repairing the bugs from thier games.
Now, that's my long post.

[nando2002]

Thanks acal :)

Now on topic:
I have friends without Internet connection: they say there are more important things in life to spend money than Internet. So Online-Activation-only games are a no go for them. But if the devs allows a way to check the DVD if no on-line connection is possible they buy and play the game.
Devs must give alternatives.

Removing the activation after a period of time won't help sells many more game since new games comes out almost every week.

[AstralWanderer]

Then why don't use the same anger on the ATARI forums in the NWN section? Remember their premium modules?Given the careful attention and willingness to listen shown by Atari on their ToEE forum, I suspect you'd make more impact throwing a whoopee cushion at a Nolan Bushnell poster. ;)

I've not purchased a NWN premium module myself (due solely to the activation) and did post in the Bioware forum about it (it seems that every 3rd or 4th thread in their Premium Module section is about activation problems!) but aside from praying for an early bankruptcy for Atari (so someone competent can take over the D&D licence), I'm sticking with the boycott.

I'm not angry, since online activation has (like Starforce) saved me money. However I do think it's important that gamers take the time to understand the problems inherent in any such DRM and be prepared to boycott games using it - it is only through lower sales (and public protest) that publishers will "get the message" as happened with Starforce. Otherwise they will ramp up the measures further (whatever they do won't "kill" piracy completely so they'll always keep escalating).Answers inside quoteAs an aside, please don't make a habit of this - it makes it harder for others to quote the relevant parts of your posts.Any game that ive seen that requires activation online has usually got a phone option.Please provide some examples where a publisher has given a phone number specifically for activation then (at best, all I've seen is an email option). The only example I know of is Microsoft's Windows Activation and I wouldn't consider that a game....if none the box for the software would say "INTERNET CONNECTION REQUIRED"And how does this allow someone to activate if they wish to keep their gaming PC offline?Errr how cant they activate, if they have access they can activate. And if not as said already they have a phone optionThe point I was making is that there are people who don't have fixed line Internet access and never will due to either living/working in restricted areas (e.g. military barracks) or having to constantly be on the move (e.g. a mobile crane operator). At best, online access would be via a local library which would be totally useless for activation purposes. And with mobile phones, Internet access may be charged at extortionate rates (for example, the mobile network I am with charges about US$4/MB sent - a bargain compared to their previous US$10/MB rate).Permabanning for what? Bot use?The reason: "Credit charge chargeback" was stated 6 words before your reply. Reading a post before hitting Reply might help avoid missing the obvious...This is obviously talk you have read about and seen rumours about, if any game/software is taking information other than information about the game it is illegal for them to do so and they are monitored alotNo, it isn't talk - it is a simple (and pretty darn obvious) observation. Publishers will log the IP address used for each activation (see Stardock's activation page linked above) and in many cases, geolocation can be used to provide an approximate physical address. If you have something that activates daily (as Windows Genuine Advantage did) on a laptop you carry with you, it should be pretty clear that this would provide a reasonable record of your whereabouts.

And it is not illegal for companies to collect data in most jurisdictions either. In many cases, they don't even need to make it clear in their EULA. And aside from technically minded customers, I very much doubt anyone is monitoring them - law enforcement in particular has far bigger things to worry about.If they do fold/bankrupt etc then they have to supply a way for you to play your software in the futureAnd which land of legal milk and honey do you live in where such a provision exists? If a company goes bankrupt, their only obligation is to their creditors (and staff, depending on legislation). They have none to their customers - indeed, for USians, the beloved DMCA would likely prevent a developer from releasing an activation-removal patch since they would need the permission of the now-bankrupt publisher (who almost certainly couldn't give a fig about past customers).Mass Effect uses SecuROM and requires an online activation for the first time that you play it.That's discussed in some detail here (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/05/07/mass-effect-wins-award-worst-pc). I was going to consider buying that but now I can forget it. :)Also I have always hated Be On Line to play Offline (was one of the things i hated about HL2 some years back)The thing here is games publishers couldn't care less whether you hate their systems or not unless it stops you buying their games. If you've purchased, then you're a happy customer as far as their balance sheets go and probably ripe for a little more squeezing next time. I've not bought HL2 myself and don't intend to - instead I focus on companies that provide games free of any activation or CD checks at all (recent examples being Space Emipres V from Malfador/Strategy First and Dominions 3 from IllWinter/Shrapnel). This is why I get annoyed about Stardock - they made a big deal about the lack of CD-checks on GalCiv2 and then brought in online activation. In my eyes that made it a "bait and switch".

[DABhand]

As an aside, please don't make a habit of this - it makes it harder for others to quote the relevant parts of your posts.

I.e. More work for you?

Please provide some examples where a publisher has given a phone number specifically for activation then (at best, all I've seen is an email option). The only example I know of is Microsoft's Windows Activation and I wouldn't consider that a game.

Two Worlds. Earth 2160. To name a few. There is more out there.

And how does this allow someone to activate if they wish to keep their gaming PC offline?

Would be stupid of them to buy something that only requires an internet connection when they have none wouldn't it. Who is at fault there? The end user for not reading the warning on the box.

The point I was making is that there are people who don't have fixed line Internet access and never will due to either living/working in restricted areas (e.g. military barracks) or having to constantly be on the move (e.g. a mobile crane operator). At best, online access would be via a local library which would be totally useless for activation purposes. And with mobile phones, Internet access may be charged at extortionate rates (for example, the mobile network I am with charges about US$4/MB sent - a bargain compared to their previous US$10/MB rate).

Again not the fault of the developer/publisher. If someone buys a product that needs online authentication (if no phone option available which mostly there is) and they know they travel around the place. Nobody's fault but their own for buying it.

The reason: "Credit charge chargeback" was stated 6 words before your reply. Reading a post before hitting Reply might help avoid missing the obvious...No, it isn't talk - it is a simple (and pretty darn obvious) observation. Publishers will log the IP address used for each activation (see Stardock's activation page linked above) and in many cases, geolocation can be used to provide an approximate physical address. If you have something that activates daily (as Windows Genuine Advantage did) on a laptop you carry with you, it should be pretty clear that this would provide a reasonable record of your whereabouts.

And it is not illegal for companies to collect data in most jurisdictions either. In many cases, they don't even need to make it clear in their EULA. And aside from technically minded customers, I very much doubt anyone is monitoring them - law enforcement in particular has far bigger things to worry about.

Not all IP addy's are static just remember that. And the permabanning was mentioned by you, do NOT forget this. Now here is a legal matter, If say someone is banned but went out and bought another copy of a game to make a new account, they cannot ban this new account without good reason, and the reason of being banned before is not valid.

"Credit charge chargeback" what the feck is this? You trying to say banned because a Credit Card is invalid or something? Can you speak english please lol

Now you have proven you only know things you have heard and read about. But not read well.

It is illegal for any software to receive information via its software of anything other than the data attributed with the software.

Only time they can see your files on your PC is if your silly enough to share your HD on a P2P server.

And which land of legal milk and honey do you live in where such a provision exists? If a company goes bankrupt, their only obligation is to their creditors (and staff, depending on legislation). They have none to their customers - indeed, for USians, the beloved DMCA would likely prevent a developer from releasing an activation-removal patch since they would need the permission of the now-bankrupt publisher (who almost certainly couldn't give a fig about past customers).

Again your only talking about hearsay things you have read or heard others saying. Actually looking into this subject more may indeed reveal a wider prospective to the whole scenario.

You seem to forget that buy purchasing software, such as any that requires online activation or to be online to play full stop, once installed and you agree with the EULA you are in a contract with yourself and the publisher. If they are going bust they HAVE to give a way for the game to be usable after this event. Or else they would find themselves in hot, infact very hot water.

[Joe Forster/STA]

As an aside, please don't make a habit of this - it makes it harder for others to quote the relevant parts of your posts.I.e. More work for you?

Yes. Use an answering style that is easy to read for everyone (not only "you", the other person in the discussion). See the Netiquette for general guidelines.

You seem to forget that buy purchasing software, such as any that requires online activation or to be online to play full stop, once installed and you agree with the EULA you are in a contract with yourself and the publisher.

And you seem to forget that, when the company goes down, that contract will become obsolete. Or is there an extra paragraph in the EULA saying that you may call the CEO in his house for technical support if the authentication servers go down for, let's say, an "unreasonable amount of time"? EULA's are especially known to disclaim all kinds of responsibility from the company!

[!HaGaR!]

And you seem to forget that, when the company goes down, that contract will become obsolete. Or is there an extra paragraph in the EULA saying that you may call the CEO in his house for technical support if the authentication servers go down for, let's say, an "unreasonable amount of time"? EULA's are especially known to disclaim all kinds of responsibility from the company!

Well, I see a need here to change the rules of the gcw. IF a company goes down or activation servers went down (is there any example yet?), cracks should be allowed which DOES circumvent online activation - because the activation is not possible anymore.

No piracy in these cases I think, because he company whos selling the software/game is no more...

Just 2 cents... And, in some way, the discussion here is obsolet. Talked about that a millions of time. Everyone hates the Biosshock protection. Very many people hate steam. Well, I also do. But, I am the owner of half life 2, bioshock and some others. Guess what? I hate myself for buying them, but I couldn´t resist playing them. If you can blame anyone for anything, than the fact that we couldn´t resist buying these titles. Period.

Well, tired and bad english... Above sentences may be awful. Thx for reading them anyway.

Good n8.

Edit: Sorry, somehow wrecked the qoute. Hope you may understand it anyway.

[Joe Forster/STA]

Well, I see a need here to change the rules of the gcw. IF a company goes down or activation servers went down (is there any example yet?), cracks should be allowed which DOES circumvent online activation - because the activation is not possible anymore.

A good idea for the future.

[DABhand]

And you seem to forget that, when the company goes down, that contract will become obsolete. Or is there an extra paragraph in the EULA saying that you may call the CEO in his house for technical support if the authentication servers go down for, let's say, an "unreasonable amount of time"? EULA's are especially known to disclaim all kinds of responsibility from the company!

Yes EULA's are a pain, but when your in a contract your in a contract.

Now imagine if Blizzard say for some weird reason went bust, they have to provide a means for people to play World of Warcraft, that is Law.

A huge massive fine on top of bankruptcy vs bankruptcy and a small server program for people to use to make own servers etc, I think they would choose option 2.

Dont forget just because they go bankrupt, a huge fine can still be made onto them which would be recovered via sale of company etc.

[wolfsrain]

Have you seen what happened with all the MMORPGs that disapperared in the last ten years? I never seen any company providing a mean to play the games later, after the servers were shutdown. Motor City Online, Planetscape, the list it's pretty long. I've never seen any law kicking in. And it should be. One of the last games that suffered the very same fate was Auto Assault. Shutdown, but no servers for the people who paid hard money, for a couple of years, to play their favorite game, after the servers were closed.
And I agree, the publisher should provide a meaning to circumvent the online activation, after, let's say, two years since the game launch. After two years most of the games are pretty dead(unless they are backed up by a strong modding community), so there would be no reason for them to keep the online activation around.

[AstralWanderer]

Two Worlds. Earth 2160. To name a few. There is more out there.Very much the exception though - and to judge from threads like this (http://board.zuxxez.com/showthread.php?t=31082) they don't seem to work too well.Would be stupid of them to buy something that only requires an internet connection when they have none wouldn't it. Who is at fault there?Depends on the information supplied prior to purchase. Most boxes I've seen only mention activation in very small print and if you purchase online, you are reliant on the webpage description. In both cases, it can be quite easy to miss such a requirement (note in particular how many Half Life 2 purchasers were caught out, finding that they could not play until Valve started allowing activations).Again not the fault of the developer/publisher.Well it is their fault if their copy protection stops purchasers from being able to use their software. Following your line of reasoning it presumably would be the customer's fault if their CD/DVD drive was not compatible with SecuRom or if they had any software installed that StarForce took a dislike to? This is about the consequences of online activation, many of which may not be immediately obvious (your posts in particular show a touching, albeit greatly misplaced, faith in the ability of the legal system to counter such issues).Not all IP addy's are static just remember that. And the permabanning was mentioned by you, do NOT forget this.And your point is?...Now here is a legal matter, If say someone is banned but went out and bought another copy of a game to make a new account, they cannot ban this new account without good reason, and the reason of being banned before is not valid.If you read most EULA's (Steam's especially (http://www.steampowered.com/agreement/) - "Valve may terminate your Account or a particular Subscription for any conduct or activity that Valve believes is illegal, constitutes a Cheat, or which otherwise negatively affects the enjoyment of Steam by other Subscribers. You acknowledge that Valve is not required to provide you notice before terminating your Subscriptions(s) and/or Account...") you will find that there is, in effect, no requirement for companies to have a good reason (or any proof of misconduct) before terminating online accounts.

Yes, you can work around a ban by purchasing another copy of the game in question. In Steam's case however, you would have to re-purchase every item requiring activation - so if you had US$200 worth of games on your account you'd have to shell out another US$200. If you don't see the problems with that, then you're either ridiculously wealthly - or Daddy hasn't found out about you using his credit card online..."Credit charge chargeback" what the feck is this?Google is your friend... (http://www.google.com/search?q=credit+card+chargeback)can you speak english please lolNice to see some irony from you here - though doubtless unintended on your part.It is illegal for any software to receive information via its software of anything other than the data attributed with the software.Unless you can actually quote (and preferably) link to the relevant legislation, statements like this are nothing more than a statement of opinion. And given the wide range of examples of software that collects private data (trying Googling ComScore) and ISPs that sell users' web history (trying Googling NebuAd), thinking that your privacy is protected legally (if you live in the United States, it generally isn't) is dangerously naive.Only time they can see your files on your PC is if your silly enough to share your HD on a P2P server.Now that is a foolish statement - any software you run and allow Internet access for can report on what files you have present, your system configuration or system activity (last webpages visited, last commands typed, etc) and such data could be encrypted in transit to prevent users from running packet sniffers to see what was happening. Some companies may be up-front about what information they collect, but that is no guarantee that all will.If they are going bust they HAVE to give a way for the game to be usable after this event. Or else they would find themselves in hot, infact very hot water.As others have noted, bankrupt companies have no legal obligations to their customers (obvious example: technical support contracts which cease when a vendor goes out of business). Unless another company chooses to acquire those obligations, customers have no legal remedy whatsoever (yes, you could try suing a bankrupt company but even if you received a judgement in your favour, they would have no assets to cover it - if they did, they wouldn't be bankrupt in the first place!).

[TippeX]

any software you run and allow Internet access for can report on what files you have present, your system configuration or system activity (last webpages visited, last commands typed, etc) and such data could be encrypted in transit to prevent users from running packet sniffers to see what was happening.

a skilled person would be able to figure out what was sent.. if it was personal information like the persons name, cc details, whatever do you not think that this information about 'program xyz reports your name, pc information, dogs name, cats name, grannys age.. blah blah blah to the company when you register' would be on the internet pretty damned quickly?

when you buy something in the shop with a credit card, does that shop also not have your name, credit card number (and probably access to your address)? there is nothing different...

if a game did record personal information and sent it when you registered / logged onto their server it would be pretty damned stupid... and then you would also be pretty damned stupid for puting your real name and other details on the pc...

the protection companies have better things to do, and while it might be a nice argument to stop people using the protection there is no foundation in it..

as for the data being encrypted 'in transit', it has to be plain text at one point in time for it to be stored and then encrypted, a skilled reverse engineer could find it by simply backtracing buffers when the data is actually sent out...

paranoia is pretty common on the internet, however paranoia and bullshit seem to prevail on forums when the word 'online activation' is mentioned...

[AstralWanderer]

a skilled person would be able to figure out what was sent..If the data is encrypted? Forget it! Even a skilled cryptanalyst could take 1-2 years to decipher strongly-encrypted content.when you buy something in the shop with a credit card, does that shop also not have your name, credit card number (and probably access to your address)?No they do not. They'll have your name and credit card details only - which is why many ask for an address separately for marketing or product warranty mailings.if a game did record personal information and sent it when you registered / logged onto their server it would be pretty damned stupid.Nonetheless it has happened. Blizzard did this with StarCraft (http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980430S0015) 10 years ago (in this case, extracting user names and email addresses from the Windows Registry).the protection companies have better things to doReally? And on what experience do you base this judgement? Do you work for one such company?

If having "better things to do" was their main criteria, most protection companies would be closing down. Their products don't actually benefit anyone (cost and inconvenience to developers, further inconvenience to users, little to no perceptible effect on piracy) but they play on the fears of publishers in order to make their living. In their eyes, the end customer is a resource to be exploited (and often demonised as someone who would pirate at the drop of a hat if not for protection system X) so if a little extra profit can be made by harvesting and marketing personal data, their main concern would likely be covering themselves with a open-ended EULA.

There is plenty of monitoring online already (financial sites like Paypal or American Express supplying visitor data to Omniture, retailers reporting purchases to ShopZilla, Nextag or Coremetrics, smaller sites using Google Analytics) so this is a well established (and presumably profitable) business. It is only a small step for a company using compulsory online activation system to contribute to (and benefit from) this.as for the data being encrypted 'in transit', it has to be plain text at one point in time for it to be stored and then encrypted, a skilled reverse engineer could find it by simply backtracing buffers when the data is actually sent out...If cracking encryption was that simple, then nobody would rely on it. As long as a verified algorithm is implemented properly (and that certainly can be harder than it looks), it isn't going to give up its crown jewels when someone fires up SoftIce or anything similar. In the case of pre-existing data (which is what is under discussion) there would be no need to store cleartext separately anyway - just encrypt and send. You could use other software to monitor (and restrict) file and registry access, but this would only be feasible for the most technically expert users.

[TippeX]

erm i actually do know what im talking about, i've reversed crypto crap before.. it has to be plain at one part (the start), backtracking buffers, breakpoint on memory access, you will find it... so i suggest you actually learn about what you're talking about and don't assume people reading this don't know more than you... they do...

all it takes is 1 person with the skill to see what gets sent and then it'll be all over the internet if its 'personal' data.. i've yet to see such a claim related to ANY protection used on games...

you cite 10 years ago.. you're living in the dark ages, things matured since then, laws came into play... (some laws that im only too aware of..)...

the protection companies benefit from reducing piracy.. i suggest you take the blinkers off.. also you seem to think all of your ideas apply to the world, they do NOT, different countries, different laws... as for my job, frankly thats none of your business..

you have successfully hijacked the thread, spouted complete and utter nonsense, and are trying to deliberately get a rise out of me now (previously it was from dab...)

cracking encryption is not easy for most people, it is for those skilled in reversing and cryptology.. a field i am quite used to, having been working in it for ~20+ years...

as for 'plenty of online monitoring already'.. sure but we are talking about GAMES and the protections of those games... you keep changing the goal posts to make your points seem valid... as for plenty of online monitoring already... how about the fbi, cia, mi5, mi6 and various other organisations monitoring the internet.. u think they don't have access to your personal information?

so, to clarify, keep your arguments / points on track, on topic, and relative..
the subject is game activation... not bank cards, not malware, not google, and dont think you know everything, there are people out there (including myself) who know a hell of a lot more than you do, so if you don't know something dont cite nonsense.. do some research.. understand the subject...
then the thread might get interesting...

[AstralWanderer]

erm i actually do know what im talking about...a field i am quite used to, having been working in it for ~20+ years...and dont think you know everything, there are people out there (including myself) who know a hell of a lot more than you do...do some research.. understand the subject.Ah, my humble apologies dear sir for having underestimated your expertise and wisdom on this topic. And thank you for enlightening this thread with well-worded posts including relevant links to back up every point.

[DABhand]

Oh look, hes now getting back at me now lol

Do you want to do this Wanderer? Im not that dumb either :P

[TippeX]

i actually think he's being honest, the argument / discussion is an interesting one for me anyway, online activation is a two edged sword, used rightly, you don't (usually) have the disk checks so there's freedom for the user, however the check is online and drm based..

so, lets see where it goes, lets just keep it on track and relative eh

[guenthar]

Tippex: The data would already be in plain text on the persons computer so they wouldn't copy it over to another place to encrypt it. You may beable to see the data on your computer but how do you know what they encrypted and transfered since they would encrypt it directly.

When it comes to game companies/DRM companies taking your personal information why can't they. Online companies do it all the time and lawmakers can't make a law to let online companies do it but game companies/DRM companies can't. All they would have to do is put a clause in their EULA that states that information is transfered to the company and the company has no obligation to reveal what it does with said information.

I have read this thread and unlike what you are implying it is the other way around when it comes to who is the troll. DABhand has been spouting off BS and only one time gave any kind of evidence and they were isolated factors to this argument.

Just to let everyone know Securom is one of the most used game protection systems in use and you can't do an activation by phone so all games that come out with Securom protection won't work on offline computers. How it is going I can see there not being one game that comes out from the big publishers not using online activation and a majority of those won't have phone activations. The only thing you can do by phone is get more activation attempts with Securom.

PS. Tippex: Not all excryptions have been decrypted and for such a small amount of information as "personal information" it would be easy to have it encrypted in an undecryptable encryption and send it over the internet.

PS. DABhand: From how you view things it sounds like if all games start using this kind of protection then I guess someone that uses and offline computer to play games shouldn't even play newer games at all and leave his computer either to rot or only play older games. Thsi is going to happen soon since most games are going like that. (there are also indie games he/she could play but not much more soon)

[DABhand]

PS. DABhand: From how you view things it sounds like if all games start using this kind of protection then I guess someone that uses and offline computer to play games shouldn't even play newer games at all and leave his computer either to rot or only play older games. Thsi is going to happen soon since most games are going like that. (there are also indie games he/she could play but not much more soon)

I didnt say all games, I said games that require online activation.

But unfortunate that it is, the PC market is an ever growing one in terms of hardware, its inevitable that people will have to upgrade their systems.

And again people have to stop just lifting software from shelves without checking specifics first.

I own a PC store, and the amount of people who had to spend more money just to play a game their kid was desperatly wanting to play is huge. When they could have took the time (even if they are not PC savvy) to check things first.

Even the savvy PC users fail to even check specs for software and whats required to play.

[guenthar]

What does anything you said have anything to do with what I said?

1. I said that most games are going to "online activation" which would prevent anyone who plays games on an offline computer not to be able to play almost any modern game. If I could afford it I would have a seperate computer for playing games and using the internet since all the overhead for having an internet connection slows down other things you are doing. I guess by the time I get out of college and can afford to do that there will be very few games available that I could play other then old games and indie games. With this by your reasoning I should either keep suffering through slow downs and unstable gameplay on a computer that has all the excess bagage that comes with having an internet conection or not even beable to play games at all (I could play indie games and older games with my internet based computer since they have lower requirements.)

There are probably other gamers like me that actually want to play there games at the highest settings without slowdowns and since I don't have to listen to you I will beable to since I can just download cracks for all those games I will be playing on my high end offline gaming pc since all of them will have online activation.

PS. Soon enough you will be looking at game boxes and every one of them will say "Internet Access Required" and then a group of hackers take down the DNS servers and noone will be buying games anymore.

[DABhand]

You should read your other post, you did say people would let their machines rot, I just added to the point you made so yes I did have something to do with what you said.

And you do realise ISP's have their own DNS servers.

[acal3000]

the subject is game activation... not bank cards, not malware, not google, and dont think you know everything, there are people out there (including myself) who know a hell of a lot more than you do, so if you don't know something dont cite nonsense.. do some research.. understand the subject...



I liked this comment Tippex made hope anymod don't :eek: if my coment fi too offtopic and I backit up

But I think people that think that know everything is people that know nothing. You learn from everything know about everything but never will know all in the whole. Not even the dorks from the MIT know all

I started using pc on the MS dos 4 dr-dos 5 days the win 3.0 to Vista also Linux distros (I hate windows) I started maybe before several young guys on this forums. On those days and I still live in the middle nowhere anc could use pc when lots of people on my school neighborhood didn't have any know anyone have a laptop no matter how petigious is their school or or if not even work to fix pc on 1995-97 those were really expensive compared with desktops or towers 9 (maybe on those year usa or the european countries didn't this prob but in my middle of nowhere country was) and note I was not rich and I still aint to this date when using my first pc at home

I could like veteran now but others started decades before me and even are more than 18 years since I used my first pc I am still learning even from new users with less posts than me

[Luciel]

I haven´t had any issues with object desktop, galciv2 or sins of a solar empire : / pretty straightforward, maybe you were just unlucky?

Oh and about before, i wouldn´t add Sierra to your list... It´s being dismantled.

[AstralWanderer]

Since passions seemed to be running high in this thread (including mine, apologies to anyone offended!) I thought it best to take a break. However there have been some interesting follow ups.

First, a thoughtful discussion at Twenty-Sided on Authorization Servers (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1680) pointing out the problems inherent with online activation when the publisher goes offline. Another related discussion at Bit-Tech (http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2008/05/10/ea-backs-down-from-draconian-copy-protection/1) includes contact information for Bioware/EA (for those wishing to complain directly) and a mention of this Online Petition (http://www.petitiononline.com/copyprot/petition.html) for removing DRM from Mass Effect and Spore.

Two more points about online activation are worth noting - the first is that it allows the publisher to change the rules. Instead of a periodic connection they could instead require you to run a separate "validation" program (think Windows Genuine Advantage) that scans your system for anything suspicious (this could include cracks, software without a recognised legitimate key or even certain security software). They could choose to relax or tighten the activation criteria (e.g. lock it to one IP address). They could charge users extra for further activations as Stardock do with resold software - see their Knowledgebase Article (http://stardock.helpserve.com/index.php?_m=knowledgebase&_a=viewarticle&kbarticleid=457) (site down at time of posting) and forum discussion thread (http://forums.stardock.com/115253/page/1). A publisher could even try to "monetise" activation of older games (with nothing to lose from sales boycotts) by tying them in with adware or other marketing. This isn't unique to games though - any activation system (e.g. ITunes, PlaysForSure) gives distributors a similar ability to unilaterally change the conditions of use and enforce them.

The second is that there is no reason to expect it to cut piracy (activation code is unlikely to be harder to remove than CD checks) so the only benefit is if legitimate users can be made to pay more. Stardock's policy on resold software is a good indicator here - if publishers can kill off (or at least profit from) second-hand sales, then that may justify this type of DRM in their eyes (from the balance sheet perspective, a legal second-hand buyer is no different from a pirate). However it also could prepare the way for the Holy Grail of many software publishers - games rental. No longer would you be able to buy a game, but would have to pay a monthly fee regardless of whether the publisher did anything to earn it. While some might argue that this would allow for continued support and updates, an equally likely scenario is of older games being treated as cash cows with users fed on hollow promises (Microsoft's Software Assurance (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070710-report-questions-the-value-of-microsofts-software-assurance-program.html) program being one such example).I haven´t had any issues with object desktop, galciv2 or sins of a solar empire : / pretty straightforward, maybe you were just unlucky?There have been a number of "activation problem" threads on Stardock's own forums so the process isn't (and can't really be expected to be) error free. In my case, it took three weeks (and four attempts by Stardock support) to get a working key for GalCiv2 (I downloaded the crack from GCW since to avoid any recurrence). Even if things work swimmingly to start with though, the main concern should be about the future - the company can change the rules as they please.

While Stardock's system may be lighter than most (check only on install, key can be retained for future use on the same machine) it is the lack of transparency that irritates me most. This requirement was not made clear when GalCiv2 was launched, no mention of it is made in the packaging or manual and no details have been given about what Stardock considers a "different machine". Would changing a processor, hard disk or network card require subsequent reactivation? Are a certain number of changes allowed in a specific time frame and if so, how many and when?

Microsoft have made such details available on Windows XP activation (a detailed description is given here (http://www.aumha.org/win5/a/wpa.php)) but it is ultimately self-defeating for publishers to expect legitimate customers to pay to deal with this while pirates continue to get away scot free.

[Joe Forster/STA]

Online activation before playing should be removed in an official patch a few months after the game's release. Also, online activation before/after installation should also be removed within a reasonable amount of time (read: way before the game and/or the publisher/developer becomes obsolete). (How you can remove a feature from the installer? Hmmm, how about a patch for the CD/DVD ISO that any customer can create himself or herself.)