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caki
05-10-2007, 16:47
This is a question for Caliber, who runs http://www.cheathappens.com/ and lives in the US of A.

Do you get any legal issues from selling trainers? Since you are technically reverse engineering the code of the game companies, and making a profit out of it. And you know how sensitive peeps in the US are...

sheep
05-10-2007, 18:53
wow.. hes running CH now? :) thats a progressive promotional upsurge.

DABhand
06-10-2007, 01:29
Well if I made a trainer today for say Bioshock, the coding I have done is mine, and I can do what I like with it.

Only a couple of companies are against trainers, most arent, since they dont bypass protections.

So its the makers own coding they can sell if they wish.

TippeX
06-10-2007, 02:00
still, requires some reverse engineeing on their code to make the trainer...
and then people selling trainers, which are built upon the backbone of breaking the eula which forbids reverse engineering...

could be a big legal mess, i for one definately wouldn't want to be the test case ....

BigBoi
06-10-2007, 03:00
So, how exactly have Gameshark and Action Replay stayed in business for about the past 20 years? (yes I had an AR for my C64). They have to reverse the code to hack the memory of all the console games.

I think as long as you're not affecting the multiplayer or online portion of the game, they really can't tell you what you can and can't do to your own single player experience.

Also, last time I checked CH is selling memberships not trainers. Accessing the trainers early is simply a benefit of their membership. The trainers are ultimately released to the public for free.

Grumpy
06-10-2007, 03:15
I guess it could be classed as making a donation to CH and they in return will give you a membership and 'free' trainers. ;)

TippeX
06-10-2007, 06:30
yup, all gray legally, but well, the cops should have bigger fish to fry before they target trainer/no-cd sites....

Synaesthesia
06-10-2007, 09:02
Come to think about it, the sites TippeX mentioned do actually save those companies from being ass-raped. As in - say they release a game that can't be trained/cracked. Say Billy has a problem with the game/CD. Then Billy (and many like him) has to constantly contact the game company or the seller to have his problems solved. While on the other hand, by peeking a bit in GCW, you can find yourself a no-CD patch that would satisfy both - company doesn't get as many complaints, buyer can wait no longer and actually play the game. I had problems with CDs like 7-8 times, due to the protections they 'bind'. And when the checks fail (StarForce), even though you have the original CD, you have 2 solutions - phone the bastards OR get a no-CD patch/crack. Second solution is THE FASTEST. Regarding no-CDs, it's like an unspoken rule. Everyone likes it and is happy about it, but when it comes to legality, we all shrug.

caki
06-10-2007, 17:18
wow.. hes running CH now? :) thats a progressive promotional upsurge.

I don't know what he's doing, but he is affiliated to it in some way. I was BSing when I said he ran it.

Synaesthesia
06-10-2007, 18:13
He's doing same thing sheep did. Creating trainers for them :D

Caliber
06-10-2007, 21:59
i do not own CH! i love the company and am very happy to be associated with them. i do not wish to speak for them but i would tell you that we do not in any way wish to defeat their copy protections or produce trainers that would affect the games online in multiplayer mode. no one is paying CH directly for a specific trainer per se, they are paying for access to a database of overwhelming amounts of codes, trainers, walkthroughts, and media as well as our support for our work. also, the forums provide feedback from the members to the members on how to defeat a level, hardware issues, and other important information regarding the games, and not just PC! we try to get the latest games trained as soon as possible, however we do not want to harm the games companies or defeat their protections in any way in the final trainer we release. my official position is to create custom trainers for the company and to update and support them and troubleshoot any problems that come up along the way. as to what the legal ramifications are regarding any person making and releasing trainers, whether for a company that charges for it's membership or otherwise, i cannot say, but i would hope that we add value and some replayability to the games, not harm the sale of them or the company.

BTW, sheep- when i read --> "thats a progressive promotional upsurge." i had to laugh out loud! very funny way to write that! that's some impressive wordage as i am definitely not the owner! "promotional upsurge"......LOL!

best,
Cal

sheep
06-10-2007, 23:36
u know me cali.. just here to keep u giggling :)

take it easy. ;p

knightpress
26-10-2007, 02:51
The legality of this is actually very simple to iron out, in the landmark cases of Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc., and the predecessor case of Midway Manufacturing Co. v. Artic International, Inc. the whole groundwork for cheat devices, cheat programs, and general editing of software with or without the developers' approval is 100% legal up until an illegal act is performed with it. That would entail digital theft of software, "phishing", and general mischief of an illegal nature.

As for the editing and cheating itself, that's entirely within the law and now firmly established case law and per the ruling will not allow anyone to abridge "the rights of users to modify copyrighted works for their own use".

This also allowed the free and legal modification of programs to your hearts content, with or without the approval of the developer.

Long story short, the use of trainers falls well within the right to modify a copyrighted work for personal use, and individuals sharing a trainer is perfectly legal because that, as per Galoob v. Nintendo, even if it is a derivative work it falls within "fair use" established within copyright and trademark law and protected by the First Amendment (sorry for any non-U.S. citizens who may not have such coverage).

The tipping point would be if someone was trying to cash in on a game by making a trainer and then attempting to claim some royalty off of the game itself, which of course they are not entitled to and then the misuse of the product rights owned by someone else would then be crossed and a civil matter would arise.

Which brings up the biggest point of all, IF there ever was to be some complaint about trainers(which there won't be because they are plainly protected and 100% legal in every possible way), it wouldn't be "illegal" it would merely be a matter of copyright infringement (and/or trademark), which is a civil matter, and while in a civil arena one could be sued for considerable damages incurred as the case may be, it's not a punishable offense of any magnitude (you could get in considerably more trouble by offending a police officer for instance).

nuckfuts
21-11-2007, 18:51
knightpress, was that before the DMCA?

sheep
22-11-2007, 03:04
im pretty sure everything is legaly sound, I cant remember the last time i read about anyone going down for training a game, or even having a civil suit againts them. The cheat carts are still being manufactured so im pretty sure you can use them as some kind of legal MARKER, first time you see datel get taken to court or even stopped you can start to worry about the legality of the subject in hand.