View Full Version : A real solution to the StarF**k virus for everyone.
The beauty of this crack is that everyone of you can participate in its development.
The best crack for Starforce that works, is simple but will take a little patience and time.
Simply do what countless other PC owners are doing boycott (don't buy) any game that contains the StarForce virus, even, and I stress even if its a biggy release that you have been waiting for over 10 years.
This is a affective and permanent solution. Put the Starforce virus makers in the unemployment queue.
Time for action, don't leave it all to the poor overworked crackers.
You will still end up with your game the only difference being it will be SF free and in the bargain bucket. Publishers will soon lose their loyalty to StarF**k when their pockets start to empty.
You wanna get rid of Starforce forever? Then boycott today.
Sure so say we stop, what happens to the other 10 million people that have no idea bout what sf is and just buy the game cos they like it? Well sorry but im going to continue to buy them for the simple reason that sf has never given me any problems.
I hear you, but news and events entering the internet community are a very effective way of spreading the word, and each day because of the internet more people do become aware of the problems with SF, myself, I suffer with start-up and shutdown problems until SF is removed and other stuff that I haven’t noticed but has been reported on well known web site, problems like slow down in games and drive errors.
I’m glad that yourself and many others are happy with SF, but its up to those that are not happy to try and sort it out.
And I think maybe this is the chief role of discussion sites like this one.
What about the 10 million that boycott the game? 10 million customers is a lot to lose.
It is pointless this is what im trying to tell you in the last thread, no matter what you try to do there will always be protections to combat piracy.
No matter who doesnt buy, aslong as they beat piracy that is their main aim.
Joe Forster/STA
12-05-2005, 04:22
Hey dajunka,
To generalize things, this world is turning into a police state. The government, the police, all executive authorities are indirectly getting into the hands of large monopolies, including but very much not limited to software/movie/music publishers (not artists/authors/developers!). Laws not defending the customers and authors (well enough) are only one symptom of this trend.
However, as you can see, most people - like sheep - are comfortable with the current situation because they don't understand what's happenning around them. A few knights of freedom won't change this, I'm afraid. Self-conscious and determined customers would; but they're almost non-existant.
Joe
People are, boycotting games protected by SF for real, it’s not fantasy. And the publishers are quite aware of this trend as it is reflected in there profits.
What’s all this with Dream Catcher software publisher, where they release a hot game, not only minus Starforce but lacking any type of software protection what so ever. I am talking about the game Dungeon Lords recently released in the states. News is it started out very buggy but is getting fixed up nicely already having a patch out, all-in-all reports seem favourable and it looks like a hit.
But why has Dream catcher released this unprotected, when they are I believe a client for Starforce. Could it be that they are not only listening to their customers but also their bank manager.
I don’t think there is one gaming site that you can go to without some member or journalist slagging StarForce, it is becoming Common knowledge that this virus is bad and boycotting it is good, and the army grows not less but more.
If eveybody said; no body else is boycotting so why should I?
Then no, it wouldent work. But not all people seem to be thinking in this way.
Joe Forster/STA
12-05-2005, 06:21
Hi dajunka,
Well, if is true what you're saying, I'm very happy to have been wrong...! :D
Joe
Hey Joe,
yep it's true, Ive spent hours, days, weeks even; serfing stuff on SF, and you wont beleive some of it. While there are a great number of people say they have no problems with SF, this is only what they assume. The truth is, it most likely is causing them problems it's just that they dont notice the problems.
http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/48427
I have read some real horror story’s especially the ones where some poor guy/gal loses their entire raid array, photos, docs, personal stuff all lost because of SF attaching itself to their media drivers and wuks up big style.
I have games here that have SF, but cant play them and the shop wont refund or exchange except for one of the same. my problem with SF is lockups on start-up and shutdown but alls fine after I clean all the SF zhit of my machine.
I agree, boycott Starforce.
It sucks. It messed up my Alcohol 120%, it confused my old Plextor CD-R and classified all my (physical) SCSI drives as virtual ones.
SF is just a pain in the *ss. SF has gone way too far intruding users' computers and software.
Also all the efforts getting a SF protected game running from an image are just plain unnecessary and useless. NO ONE owning the original game would disconnect all his IDE stuff, attach a USB-IDE converter or use some other complicated and fancy methods just to play from an image.
I am sick of these SF discussions.
And so say all of us.
Tis true, this is the only real and lasting cure against this ever increasing problem.
We do have hope in the likes of Dreamcatcher with Dungeon Lords, who’s giving the no protection policy a try in America, I suppose if the sales are okay there, then they will adopt the same policy when released in Europe, come on you yanks buy this game. How great to be shut of all this poo intrusion protection software and get back to some sort of sensible protection or even better none at all we could all exercise our right to make backups.
The way things are going buying a game will be a nightmare.
1 Buy the game Pacman 2030 at mind boggling price in crappy case with no manual.
2 Shove CD in and Start Install.
3 Enter CD key.
4 Wait.
5 Activate game by on line registration.
6 Wait for game files to be decrypted.
7 Enter account details, user name and password.
8 Wait for email to arrive with activation code.
9 Enter code.
10 Wait while code checked against online database.
11 Start again as web site crashed.
12 Get to game start-up screen, told there is an error, "please wait for patch to resolve this issue."
13 Wait 4 weeks
14 install patch.
15 Get to start-up screen, told "error please insert correct CD."
16 Get in touch with support. Get told to knob off.
17 Buy new CD rom, insert game cd.
18 Get to start-up, get told "hardware change detected please reinstall."
19 Reinstall game and go to site for new activation code.
20 Get told "error Cd key and user details already in use."
21 Kill yourself.
or
21 Get game to finally work only to find out is a Atari 1200 port-over from 1963
The thing is you have to think why this horrible protection is out on the market?
Its the fault of the general public who didnt buy games, that forces these horrible protections out.
Ive been lucky with SF and not been badly affected. But with others they have.
This is the norm, even older protections cause problems with certain systems, at the end of the day, not all PC systems are the same so you will never write a protection that will work on everyones PC's 100%.
But like I said, blame the people who steal rather than the developers/publishers/coders.
But like I said, blame the people who steal rather than the developers/publishers/coders.
I can't do that.. That’s like saying Some dude on the other side of the world goes and wastes some other dude on the other side of the world, then the fuzz coming round my house and arresting me for it. You can't pass the buck over to the innocent for the crimes of the guilty, that just isn’t right, the publishers, in this case are at fault, theres always been pirates but there's never been aggressive protection on this scale before.
if the gameswere a little more cheap i would buy a game every week.they are expensive but those guyz work 1 year minimum.they deserve the money but you don't want either to give a fortune right.
Joe Forster/STA
12-05-2005, 10:34
Hey Luci,
Enthusiastic game developers do it for the fun and the fame; it is good that they even get money for it but they might even do it for free, too. It is the game publisher that gets most of the money, from your purchase. It's like banks: No matter how much money you earn, as interest, by putting your money into the bank, you can safely bet that the bank will earn tons more! Simply, because you have no other choice and have to accept their (biased? outrageous?) conditions.
(A friend of mine and his friends have been doing a retro-style isometric shooter with a flying dragon for years. They've been doing other stuff -productivity software and software translation - to earn money while coding the game. Now that it's finished, they're not finding a publisher for it. Kind of end of the story. Ridiculous or sad, you choose...)
Joe
One question that bugs me for ages: Why do pure multiplayer games have to have a copyprotection? A serial/cd key that is checked on every connect to a game server is IMHO fully sufficient.
Yes I too have experienced problems with Starforce and will gladly boycott buying any more Starforce protected games!
I too had problems with Alcohol 120 and my drives after installing a Starforce game!
I too will not go to the extremes of disabling drives etc to play the few starforce games i have, instead prefering to just use the original discs.
From now on the only Starforce game which will be played on my 3 systems is Race Driver 2 as this has never caused me any problems before. It is just the later Starforce Protected games!
The way things are going with PC games we will all eventually have no choice but to buy one of the console machines. This would be a shame to have to do as ive always believed, for most games, the experience is way better on a top end PC. If we all went to consoles the gaming industry would still make their money from the games! It almost seems as if this is what the industry wants us to do!
So yes, no more Starforce Games for me! :(
That's the spirit.
There are 3 games coming out this year that I will be buying on day of release, X3 , COD2, and Black and White 2. I am really looking forward to playing these games. But I will be checking on the copy protection that they come with, and if it's SF, then it's a big flat NO!. Ill buy something else with my money.
JediKnight
12-05-2005, 13:34
Piracy is way of life.... if you have the money to buy originals, do it. If not, get an illegal copy and use a crack.
Silly boy.
As I said Blame the people who steal.
There is hundreds of thousands perhaps millions who download their games, about 15-20% are projected loss of sales. Which is quite alot of a loss.
In simple terms it is stealing bottom line. No matter what the excuse of the person is.
There is no point in trying to bycott anything, sure they may lose peoples as customers, but what they lose in customers they gain in new people venturing into the PC market with their new machines, its an evergrowing circle.
I can't do that.. That’s like saying Some dude on the other side of the world goes and wastes some other dude on the other side of the world, then the fuzz coming round my house and arresting me for it. You can't pass the buck over to the innocent for the crimes of the guilty, that just isn’t right, the publishers, in this case are at fault, theres always been pirates but there's never been aggressive protection on this scale before.
Murder and Piracy are 2 different things, you cant compare the 2.
But in a business, as it always has been for decades, if one company has losses they make up for the losses by increasing prices.
As does software publishers.
As I said before the reason protections are so much in a huge scale is because the countless people downloading illegally. Once apon a time the net was full of free webspace providers, like xoom etc, they all closed that services because of warez sites. Now they are doing the same with games, introducing a protection that may well affect 3-5% of the population (but SF has been kind to make fixes for people which many of you have forgotten). PC's arent all the same, my systems is different from your own, but SF has caused me no problems whatsoever.
One question that bugs me for ages: Why do pure multiplayer games have to have a copyprotection? A serial/cd key that is checked on every connect to a game server is IMHO fully sufficient.
Because of the chance people may make a public server for games, they would prefer to use protections so no tom **** or harry can copy the game and take home to play free on a public server.
Morglum007
13-05-2005, 02:40
@DABhand:
FIRST:
I would like to know if u are in the distributors part, or in the real game publisher part. As i know, game developers are WAITING for its game to be released on p2p nets. If game have acceptance, then they pick up a champagne bottle and celebrates it like a birthday. Game will be sold. If it does not appear, then worry about.
People who doesn't like that are publisers, and thats the people add copyprotections to games they distribute. Just THINK about this:
Commandos SAGA; Pyro studios; EIDOS:
Game studio: 3-5€ per copy sold (Pyro)
Distributor: 12-20€ per copy sold (EIDOS)
Shop: 12-20# per copy sold
TOTAL final PRIZE: 27-45€ per USER copy
Do u see SOMETHING there???????? I think u should be BLIND to avoid it. Game market is like pointed above, so please don't talk about things u don't know.
SECOND:
U should know how SF works inside ur box, and then u will worry for ur windows integrity. Futhermore, do u know how SF sends/receive IDE info??, i think not. Do u know whats Themida is?, and its compatibility problems?
U are so happy by now, till something becomes hard, then u will begin to think about.
Read and learn.
Morglum dont make me pull out your real name ;P hehe
Anyways hehehe, im talking on the publisher end, I know the developer would be happy whatever the price the game is set at aslong as money is coming after their publisher contract (i.e. royalties).
Before you assume my understanding of how software/hardware works. Do have a look at the coders forum, I do have knowledge of ASM, API's, etc etc. And im in the business of Selling and Buying, Upgrading and Building PC's and components.
Morglum007
13-05-2005, 03:53
Then, u have similar knowledge i have, so then, u should understand me without problems.
Respecting SF stuff, i think i have advantaje, both code and physical working, but who knows.... ^^
mastergamer
13-05-2005, 04:00
I will never buy a SF protected game
never!! :cool:
CrossWire
13-05-2005, 05:20
Same here, I’m in, no more games with this unrighteous protection shall ever see my hard drive.
One of the threads on this forum had 186000 views, so if everyone of those people said no to a game using starforce costing £30, then the publisher would be out of pocket for £5580000, friggin hek, He would have to eat at McDonalds. :)
Joe Forster/STA
13-05-2005, 05:31
Hey Morglum007,
Don't bother with DABhand, he has been blinded with the stupid, demagog whining of game publishers about piracy and he cannot get rid of it...
Piracy is blown up by them, as a good reason for them to A) add copy protection and/or B) raise final product prices. On the other hand, the true problem lies in low quality games sold for high prices. It is not the "not so casual pirates" who are greedy, it's the corporations. (And this applies to the movie and music industry, too, not just the video game industry!)
Joe
Joe you still have to answer my question about your law.
What is your intepretation of the "contract" which is said in the line you pasted?
Im not the one blinded, im stating facts, im not happy with high prices, but im not going to blame them for it, as you well know and wont admit if it wasnt for piracy and warez these prices wouldnt be so high.
And as ive said before ive heard the countless favourite excuses, ive been around since early atari consoles etc, ive seen prices exceed due to piracy.
But im still waiting to hear your answer on that question, that you non-challantly gave a wide berth in an earlier thread a month or so ago.
Joe Forster/STA
13-05-2005, 06:56
Hey DABhand,
I have nothing more to answer you as I gave you my answer back then already! If you didn't understand it or didn't want to accept it, that's your problem, not mine.
As it has been pointed out by others on this forum, too, local, country-specific laws have priority over any EULA. There's nothing to be dicussed about it. If you think there is, you gotta "read and learn", as Morglum007 kindly put it.
As for my country, Hungarian law gives you the right to make one backup copy of your original software. There's nothing to be dicussed about it. If you think there is, you gotta learn Hungarian and translate that sentence - or see the original on the Artisjus page - yourself.
So, for the Nth time, what are we arguing about when I'm stating facts and you're just babbling around?!
Joe
Thats why I asked you, what your intepretation of the contract was.
The contract is an agreement on both parties you and the publisher, and only time you do this is by saying yes to the EULA. That is the contract, and your law says aslong as both parties agree you can make a backup of your software. But, if in the EULA it says it does not you cant.
If by law you are to make a backup of anything, then publishers would be breaking the law by selling software with protections in your country, since you cant easily make a backup.
Im not babbling on, im not giving my intepretation of things, im stating what is and how it is.
And its people who read one persons outrage about something then adopt it themselves without even thinking it out themselves, this leads to all these "Publishers are evil" threads, when as I said the publishers are not to blame entirely, but your ordinary people who download. If it wasnt for those ordinary people downloading, you may have seen more easier to use protections even simple ones.
Im having a debate here, not looking for a fight or a flame war, but it is suprising that many wont view other ideas or facts and think their way is the only way.
Just because I dont share the same ideal views as yourself or others, im supposedly noobish or not worth listening to?
There is always a 2nd side to everything, and I mean everything.
This is for everyone, if you start up a thread for discussion or debate, you must be willing to accept or debate about another persons view. If you dont you shouldnt start up these threads, as you will never get a 100% agreement on anything.
To sum up on this debate, ill put my main points across and leave it at that.
1. Starting up a group to bycott games with SF isnt the best way, not only will the publishers not care they wont listen to what you have to say then, they will view you as non-purchasee i.e. not worth time and money. Best thing to do is get your specs of your PC, with problems using SF protected games, your views both pros and cons and then send to Starforce or the publisher themselves, that way they can work out what is going wrong and correct it. Just like game patches are supposed to do.
2. Blaming the publisher or protection makers is also not the way to go, the only way these bizarre (and yes some are badly made) protections are around is because of the projected loss of sales due to piracy, piracy is here will be always here and probably wont stop. Its the greed of individuals that causes these more bizzare protections to appear on the market.
3. Wether people like it or not, Alcohol 120% or daemon tools is an essential warez app, if you have installed the protections will stop thinking you may or may not have a illegal image of a game, it doesnt know this 100% so to be safe it will detect the emulation and stop. What a protection should be doing, that is what it is made for.
4. As in JediKnights post as I quote "Piracy is way of life.... if you have the money to buy originals, do it. If not, get an illegal copy and use a crack." This is the usual response from a warez kiddy, when you download a game it is not Piracy! Piracy is illegal selling of a game, your just stealing downloading it, but it as just as bad. Now imagine a few million JediKnights thinking the same thing. How many would actually do what was originally said, do you think if they have money go out and buy a game? No offcourse not, they download it cause its free. Stealing plain and simple. And as said before, it doesnt matter if a game is badly designed etc, it is the same stealing.
But what most dont realise is, games like KOTOR2 etc were downloaded alot, so game quality doesnt promise good sales. Even if a game was $5 people would still steal it, that is how it is.
CrossWire
13-05-2005, 08:23
@DABhand
All we want to know is are you going to join us and boycott starforce protected games or are you not?
hehehe I guess my lost post was long winded a bit :P
Nahh there is no point boycotting, help the SF makers by giving them your PC specs and error msg's etc that occur, im sure by helping them they will help you.
Also as I said ive not had any problems in shape or form with Starforce. Im just one of the many lucky ones I guess.
Joe Forster/STA
13-05-2005, 09:09
Hi DABhand,
If by law you are to make a backup of anything, then publishers would be breaking the law by selling software with protections in your country, since you cant easily make a backup.
The law doesn't expect software publishers to allow you to easily make backups of the original software you purchased from them. (I'm not sure how it is phrased, though: if A) "publisher must allow easy backing up" is not mentioned in the law or B) "publisher does not need to allow easy backing up" is explicitly mentioned. I would vote for A) but, for the result, that doesn't really matter anyway...)
Joe
Nahh there is no point boycotting, help the SF makers by giving them your PC specs and error msg's etc that occur, im sure by helping them they will help you.
I did. I asked SF support why SF wouldn't accept a game cd from any of my 3 SCSI CD/DVD drives. They answered: It's intended because virtual drives are also using/faking SCSI techniques.
I asked them when they got that brain-fart and returned the game for a full refund.
Still waiting for an answer though... :D
Hopefully you asked them in nicer words :P
Starforce3 is trash . Safedisc and Securom i can respect cause they won't load the protection drivers constant . only when the game is running the protection drivers are running.., with starforce you have to reboot after installing and the protection driver is running always after that..so this spoils youre memory .
Morglum007
13-05-2005, 15:58
hehehe I guess my lost post was long winded a bit :P
Nahh there is no point boycotting, help the SF makers by giving them your PC specs and error msg's etc that occur, im sure by helping them they will help you.
Also as I said ive not had any problems in shape or form with Starforce. Im just one of the many lucky ones I guess.
DABhand, unfortunately, SF guys will not HELP u anymore with problems with its prot. The way SF is turning is by eliminating any thread that could get its protection system compromised. This way, SF will not stop even if many systems get crashed.
I have no problems with SecuROM or Safedisc, and i hadn't too with SF before SCCT arrived. The problem now isn't a cracking/not cracking/copying/not copying/emulating issue. SF is becoming a very interesting system, and it is close to be FULLy cracked.
What i'm trying to say is that SCCT implemented its new SF system to intercept IDE calls "on the flY", checking or not original CD, and this CRASH FOREVER some DVD drives, such LG, Toshiba, or some SONY. When i say crash, i'm saying to buy a new one, cause older does not burn anymore.
Drives without a very stable writing system, like "Just Link", at the end will be ****ed by the intrussion of SF in IDE calls. SF, as someone stated earlier isn't a passive driver anymore, it is fully active ALWAYS, even when extracting DPM or burning DVDs. This way, Just link overloads and then, drive motor spins up an down without any ritmic control. Finally, drive DIES. This is not a foolish warn, thats what spanish people from almost everywhere reports, and we know why. I simply recommend not to use SF to protect their drives, but at ur own ( as said in english).
PS: I have a lot of ORIGINAL games, even with SF, but not for playing the standart way( some of then DOESN'T work on my MACHINE due specs, but i don't care). I use cracks to play them ( to PLAY), even having original, cause i know how SF works, and don't like how it runs.
Null warns are most times useless, thats what i recomend.
Morg
As burning you mean with Alcohol I guess, I have blindwrite and nero and ive yet to have the same problem as you said.
Perhaps its the virtual drive api's conflicting with SF, cause I dont think the programmers at SF would make something that would intentionally screw up drives, they would be liable to cost if that was indeed the case.
Im not saying they are all good, but nothing is perfect, even protections some will have conflicts while others who use the same dont have the same problems.
Thats why I was saying to help them find out why, by giving them details. At least they can work towards this not happening.
Morglum007
14-05-2005, 00:51
As burning you mean with Alcohol I guess, I have blindwrite and nero and ive yet to have the same problem as you said.
Perhaps its the virtual drive api's conflicting with SF, cause I dont think the programmers at SF would make something that would intentionally screw up drives, they would be liable to cost if that was indeed the case.
Im not saying they are all good, but nothing is perfect, even protections some will have conflicts while others who use the same dont have the same problems.
Thats why I was saying to help them find out why, by giving them details. At least they can work towards this not happening.
DABHand really??????????, heheheheh it is the newest and nasty second effect they WILL NOT fix cause it is PART of COPYPROTECTION. It is NOT a BUG, it is INTENDED to BE. Or this, or RPMS could be authenticated, and of course it wont like that.
I didn't thought u were so innocent :D, and u are facing problems like others, When u had to BUY a new recorder, lets see what face u put and what oppinion u have on Starforce.
TIP: I do not mean burning with Alcohol, i mean drive DEATH, so no more burning with Alcohol, BlindWrite, Nero neither any burning APP u could find. When i say dead, i say a new drive. U said, virtual APIs conflict, well, u are mixing IDE commands, from real IDE drives or virtual ones. The effect is bidirectional, and optical devices gets compromised. Remember that the idea is to make SF to think a virtual drive is a real one, so if u "****" one, will "****" the other too. It is part of SF policy.
CdSTeam
CrossWire
14-05-2005, 02:07
I’m sorry DABhand but you really do need to wake up and smell the coffee. :)
As ive said ive not had any problems with any SF protected games like others are having.
Pangster
14-05-2005, 19:55
I will boycott SF as well!
If the problems or 'intrusions' Starforce where made public then lots more people will know about it and SF will get a bad reputaion because of it.
A bad reputaion is alomst as bad a gaining no profit because those two are connected. Think about it!
Radar911
15-05-2005, 03:26
Boycotts might have worked a hundred years ago, but in today's corporate society they are obsolete. I don't think the 20 or so people in this topic are going to do anything about StarForce by not bying their products, it won't even be noticeable on the sale figures. Not even thousand people would be able to stop SF, sorry to say.
Ask yourself if what you are trying to achieve will have any effect, and be realistic about what you think.
CrossWire
15-05-2005, 05:25
Boycotts might have worked a hundred years ago, but in today's corporate society they are obsolete. I don't think the 20 or so people in this topic are going to do anything about StarForce by not bying their products, it won't even be noticeable on the sale figures. Not even thousand people would be able to stop SF, sorry to say.
Ask yourself if what you are trying to achieve will have any effect, and be realistic about what you think.
Woooooooooo! negative vibes man, negative vibes, we are all doomed.
Everyone 'one' person from these forums tells 'five' friends about the intrusive Starforce Protection! Every one of those 'five' tells another 'five' of their friends and so on and so on! It will take time but it can happen?
I once read somewhere on these forums that quite obviously the protection makers do scan forums like these! They will see that people dont like the idea of the protection being so intrusive! But still they will not change what they are doing!
But, just like everything these days, someone will take this whole intrusive idea into a court room! Then you may see some sort of change?
The change has to start somewhere, one voice needs to grow into two, the two into four and from there it just keeps growing untill those voices together become very loud!
Surely as many more people, (even the ones who know nothing about protections etc) will start experiencing problems with their computers thru Starforce. They may not know at the time what is the cause of the problems!
But they to will either go to the place of purchase or even search the internet and they will be told or discover it is actually Starforce which is causing them all the troubles!
Then slowly, but surely, there will be many more people boycotting Starforce games!
It may take 1 year it may take 5 years, it may be quicker it may longer? But it will happen! Many more will join the idea of either boycotting Starforce games or those people will just go and buy a console machine!
Lets band together and turn this thread into a thread which has the 180 000 views! Even better let this thread grow into one which reaches 1 million views! Then and only then may we see some sort of protection that will do what it is meant to do and that is to protect the game! Not invade our systems and be destructive! That in my opinion borders on being a virus!!
CrossWire
15-05-2005, 09:29
Bravo Grumpy, very well said.
CrossWire
16-05-2005, 02:03
Here’s a bit of info for you. X2 the threat, the Euro version, having the SF virus, Egosoft the developers where asked by the publishers Quicksilver to remove the protection from the game, and they have. You can now download a unprotected exe file from the Egosoft web site, X2 is now completely unprotected.
Now, could it be that the boycotting and complaints are having more of a effect than we know. :)
Funny that since its publishers who put on the protections as they are the ones that distribute the game, packaging etc.
CrossWire
16-05-2005, 02:23
Funny that since its publishers who put on the protections as they are the ones that distribute the game, packaging etc.
Yer it is isn’t it? Maybe they just give the .exe which, btw, is Multilanguage to Egosoft to distribute, dunno really, all I know is it's there and ready for D/L and "Burnit" one of the Devs said that they where asked by the publishers to remove the protection.
And why would a publisher remove the protection from a game over a year old unless, unless he had canceled his contract with the makers of SF.
And the publishers are quite aware of this trend as it is reflected in there profits.
Lol, ask Ubisoft and their starforce protected Splinter cell chaos theory, imho the trend is to make games protected with a real protection against leechers and that is truly working and reflected in their profits.
Who give a **** of what leechers boycott, you would have never bought it if it was not starforce protected anyway... and with starforce, if you really want to play a game without having to wait sometimes weeks for a crack, you buy it.
Moreover it is harder to sell a pirate version of a game with such a protection and that's also what a publisher wants from a protection.
Best regards,
Sensi
@Sensi
Lets just get one thing straight, I do not 'Leech' games!
I will not buy a Starforce protected game simply because of the 'Virus' like features it installs onto my system!
Some games are just not worth the headaches they give! ;)
CrossWire
16-05-2005, 23:21
@Sensi
Buy it, Ha!, that' just the point, if I buy the game it comes with SF protection and that is what we don't want. If the game comes without SF then I for one, would not hesitate to buy any game I was interested in.
In short we don't want to pirate games with all there hacks and cracks and inability to update, we want to buy them, but the publisher though his greed wont let us.
At the end of the day how many of your actually read the EULA before saying yes.
Perhaps you should read it, it tells all what Starforce is going to do, and you all agreed to it. :P
@Dabhand
You are wrong!
I have just finished reading the EULA for V8 Supercars, Obscure, Soldiers Heroes of WW2 and Street Racing Syndicate. As you may well know these are all Starforce protected games! Nowhere, I repeat 'Nowhere', does it say Starforce will be installed on my system! Nowhere does it say a hidden program or Drivers will be installed on my system! Nowhere!
If these companys responsible were not trying to hide the fact they are secretly installing hidden software onto our systems they would gladly state in the EULA what their intentions are!
In the V8 Supercars game manual, inside of the front cover, it clearly states:
"This Codemasters game is protected by the FADE protection system. If you purchase an illegal copy of the game, you will be able to play it - but not for long. As you play, the gameplay of a pirated copy will degrade."
Now if they are not hiding anything why dont they go on to tell us about Starforce? Because they are doing it illegally!! Nowhere do they mention Starforce!
In the SRS EULA they mention:
"Limitation of liability
To the maximum extent permitted by applicable law, in no event will publisher or its third-party suppliers or distributors be liable for any direct, indirect, special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of the use of or inability to use the licensed product, including, without limitation, damages for lost profits, loss of data, loss of good will, work stoppage, computer failure or malfunction, even if advised of the possibility thereof, and regardless of the legal or equitable theory (contract, tort, or otherwise) upon which the claim is based. In no event shall publisher be liable to user in any amount exceeding the amount of the license fee paid to publisher."
Again 'Nowhere' does it mention Starforce is going to be installed on my system! But they do mention the possibility of something causing 'computer failure or malfunction'!
Hmmm, now I do wonder what is going to cause the failure or malfunction? I do believe many of us are aware of what is going to do this! Yes, Starforce!
This is their way of trying to protect themselves! But how can this be taken seriously when I could use the argument that nothing about Starforce protection being installed is mentioned in any of the documents they have supplied!
I have followed this Starforce argument/discussion from the beginning, and I now believe you really are sitting on your high horse about this! I watched you come on board this forum and believed you showed enough intelligence and knowledge to be a great asset to these forums. I have spoken with you before and found you to be a likeable person. But I now believe you are being very difficult and unintelligent about this subject! You have now stated something about 'reading the EULA' which in my opinion is just not correct!!
So I now ask the question: "Have you infact read the EULA?" I believe not!
If you have found the words "Starforce Protection will be installed" in another game EULA then by all means send it to me and I will gladly appolagize for what I have said about you being difficult!
But untill then please dont say things that are not correct! Nowhere does it say in the EULA that Starforce will be installed!
Joe Forster/STA
17-05-2005, 08:55
Yeah, sure! Even the first posts about problems with the new Starforce system in other forums were about Starforce being installed without its own EULA displayed or Starforce being mentioned in the game's EULA...
Game-Hacker
17-05-2005, 08:56
I read the EULA of Stronghold2 and I can't see a word mentioning STARFORCE. So can we sue firefly studio? :D
CrossWire
17-05-2005, 09:26
@DABhand
Do you by any chance have your foot in your mouth? :)
Step 1:
LIMITED SOFTWARE WARRANTY AND LICENSE AGREEMENT
YOUR USE OF THIS SOFTWARE IS SUBJECT TO THIS LIMITED SOFTWARE WARRANTY AND LICENSE AGREEMENT (THE "AGREEMENT") AND THE TERMS SET FORTH BELOW. THE "SOFTWARE" INCLUDES ALL SOFTWARE INCLUDED WITH THIS AGREEMENT, THE ACCOMPANYING MANUAL (S), PACKAGING AND OTHER WRITTEN, ELECTRONIC OR ON-LINE MATERIALS OR DOCUMENTATION, AND ANY AND ALL COPIES OF SUCH SOFTWARE AND ITS MATERIALS. BY OPENING THE SOFTWARE, INSTALLING, AND/OR USING THE SOFTWARE AND ANY OTHER MATERIALS INCLUDED WITH THE SOFTWARE, YOU HEREBY ACCEPT THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE WITH 2K GAMES ("LICENSOR").
Step 2:
THE SOFTWARE UTILITIES.
The Software may contain a level editor or other similar type tools, assets and other materials (the "Software Utilities") that permit you to construct or customize new game levels and other related game materials for personal use in connection with the Software ("Customized Game Materials"). In the event the Software contains such Software Utilities, the use of the Software Utilities is subject to the following additional terms, conditions and restrictions:
(a) All Customized Game Materials created by you are exclusively owned by LICENSOR and/or its licensors (as the case may be) and you hereby transfer, assign and convey to LICENSOR all right, title and interest in and to the Customized Game Materials and LICENSOR and its permitted licensors may use any Customized Game Materials made publicly available to you for any purpose whatsoever, including but not limited to for purposes of advertising and promoting the Software;
(b) You will not use or permit third parties to use the Software Utilities and the Customized Game Materials created by you for any commercial purposes, including but not limited to distributing, leasing, licensing, renting, selling, or otherwise exploiting, transferring or assigning the ownership of such Customized Game Materials;
(c) Customized Game Materials must be distributed solely for free; provided, that you may contact LICENSOR for a license to commercially exploit the Customized Game Materials which LICENSOR may grant or deny in its sole discretion;
(d) Customized Game Materials shall not contain modifications to any other executable files;
(e) Customized Game Materials must be used alone and can be created if the Customized Game Materials will be used exclusively in combination with the commercially released retail version of the Software.
(f) Customized Game Materials cannot contain libelous, defamatory or other illegal material, material that is scandalous or invades the rights of privacy or publicity of any third party, or contain any trademarks, copyright-protected work or other property of third parties (without a valid license); and
(g) All Customized Game Materials must contain the proper credits to the authors of the Customized Game Materials and must indicate that LICENSOR is not the author of the Customized Game Materials with additional language that "THIS MATERIAL IS NOT MADE, GUARANTEED OR SUPPORTED BY THE PUBLISHER OF THE SOFTWARE OR ITS AFFILIATES."
Now the words Starforce does not indeed been told, but Starforce is incoporated with the game (software as said in EULA)
1st Step, you agreed to all software installed.
2nd Step, it says you agreed to install and they cannot be held responsible for any misuse or damage. As does it do in conjunction with this part also.
IN NO EVENT WILL LICENSOR BE LIABLE FOR SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES RESULTING FROM POSSESSION, USE OR MALFUNCTION OF THE SOFTWARE, INCLUDING DAMAGES TO PROPERTY, LOSS OF GOODWILL, COMPUTER FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION AND, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, DAMAGES FOR PERSONAL INJURIES, EVEN IF LICENSOR HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. LICENSOR’S LIABILITY SHALL NOT EXCEED THE ACTUAL PRICE PAID FOR USE OF THE SOFTWARE. SOME STATES/COUNTRIES DO NOT ALLOW LIMITATIONS ON HOW LONG AN IMPLIED WARRANTY LASTS AND/OR THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, SO THE ABOVE LIMITATIONS AND/OR EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF LIABILITY MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. THIS WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS, AND YOU MAY HAVE OTHER RIGHTS THAT VARY FROM JURISDICTION TO JURISDICTION.
We may not like it, but unfortunately you all agreed to it.
@Dabhand
What a complete load of ****e!
When they say 'software' most would presume they are talking about the game as being the said software!
You are asked during the game install, "Do you want to install (ie) V8 Supercars?"
Do you want to install (ie) DirectX9?
Do you want to install Gamespy?
Do you want to install the Acrobat Reader?
All software which we are told about!
But nowhere are we asked "Do you want to install Starforce?"
This, and you damn well know it, is not what they mean by software!
If they had nothing to hide they would also ask "Do you want to install Starforce?"
Joe Forster/STA
17-05-2005, 10:24
If game publishers had nothing to hide, they would've already created icons for most copy protection systems, printed them on the product box, and added a URL (yes, outside, on the box!) where the (potential) customer may read more information about the copy protection, including but not limited to known problems, before actually purchasing the item. (The same goes for copy-protected audio CD's, e.g. ones that cannot be played in car CD players, exactly because of the copy protection!)
@Joe
Yes, exactly! I agree with what you say, 100%. ;)
Ive BEEN boycotting them.......and the only two I miss are SH3 and GTR,because I got a PC to fool with simulations.
But really,if you want a POPULAR boycott,start a site,and keep an up-to-date list of the current games using it.
I'd personally like to see a class action brought against them,and maybe get a law that makes companies state ON THE BOX what protections are used.
Its not likely to happen,but neither is me buy any game I know that uses starcrud.
If EA ever goes that route,alot more people will discover the nasty side of it.
Great discussion guys,most everything else has been said....;)
@CPUYoda
cdsteam already keeps a list of all the games which use Starforce. ;)
I have been continuing my research, and done quite a bit of probing.
And no zhit guys more and more people are saying no to SF protected games every day. The name StarForce is rapidly becoming a dirty word in the computer community.
Unfortunately my knowledge of web design is limited to f**k all, or I might have had a go at making my own Anti Starforce community web site. Anyway it's a very good idea.
Keep it up, spread the good word, and remember you are not alone.
Let's bury these SF b******ds, so that they never make another penny at our expense.
@CPUYoda
cdsteam already keeps a list of all the games which use Starforce. ;)
See thats great,but I'd never heard of it....
I generally try my best to find out when demos appear(most SF games have SF in the DEMOS too?!?)
Kudos guys!
@Dabhand
What a complete load of ****e!
When they say 'software' most would presume they are talking about the game as being the said software!
You are asked during the game install, "Do you want to install (ie) V8 Supercars?"
Do you want to install (ie) DirectX9?
Do you want to install Gamespy?
Do you want to install the Acrobat Reader?
All software which we are told about!
But nowhere are we asked "Do you want to install Starforce?"
This, and you damn well know it, is not what they mean by software!
If they had nothing to hide they would also ask "Do you want to install Starforce?"
Cmon Grumpy I know your more clever than that, the protection is part of the game which you install.
Which is what is mentioned by ALL SOFTWARE in the EULA.
Joe Forster/STA
18-05-2005, 06:10
DABhand,
See the applications Grumpy has listed:
- V8 Supercars is by whatever game publisher (don't remember);
- DirectX is by Micro$oft;
- Gamespy is by whatever other publisher;
- Acrobat Reader is by Adobe.
These applications have been developed and published by different companies, therefore, their EULA's are definitely not the same. Actually, before installing them, you can see their own EULA's displayed and you're required to accept them, don't you?
Starforce is by Starforce Technologies or whatever. Another developer and publisher. Why isn't its own EULA displayed? Especially, that, while:
- DirectX is a well-known component of the operating system, is present on pretty much any Windows PC and does nothing bad to your system;
- Gamespy and Acrobat Reader are also old (not obsolete!), respected applications and do nothing bad,
Starforce is a new, unproven (khm!) technology and it is already known to cause minor or major problems.
So?
Joe
@Dabhand
You really are being stupidly pig headed about this! I dont know exactly what you are trying to prove?
It does NOT say in the EULA that you accept the installing of any sort of Protection! It says Software, that in itself is misleading! The more you point out the more I believe it would not stand up in a court of law!
They are hiding behind the word Software! It is illegal to mislead or decieve people!
You are showing yourself to be a right twat! :rolleyes:
Prediction: Yes I know what you are going to say Dabhand! "It says software in the EULA and you agree to it when you install!" yeh yeh yeh! :rolleyes:
DABhand,
See the applications Grumpy has listed:
- V8 Supercars is by whatever game publisher (don't remember);
- DirectX is by Micro$oft;
- Gamespy is by whatever other publisher;
- Acrobat Reader is by Adobe.
These applications have been developed and published by different companies, therefore, their EULA's are definitely not the same. Actually, before installing them, you can see their own EULA's displayed and you're required to accept them, don't you?
Starforce is by Starforce Technologies or whatever. Another developer and publisher. Why isn't its own EULA displayed?
Know Punkbuster?
Every game that has PB Anticheat software included asks you if you want to install it and even displays its own EULA.
And since nearly every Server has PB enabled, I would call PB a _mandatory_ part of the software (game).
acal3000
18-05-2005, 19:47
Starforce is a pest I hate it
I have two games protected by sf3 one I could crack with a nocd and the other I never coudn't crack it
I hate it for this reasons:
I have 3 Drives:
My DVD ROm drive take ages to validate the original disk (more than one minute) I thinks that could be bad for the life of the drives
MY external cd-rw drive never read it it always says that I should use another drive
the only drive that can validate faster the disk on my computer its and old and crappy phillips burner
and also mentioning that when is checking the disk starforce overheats a lot my cpu
that why I hate it damn starfoce
eskimo103
18-05-2005, 20:18
@dabhand
You can argue semantics all you want, but when it comes to the bottom line, when the publishers deliver starforce to you, they try and conceal it. There is no declaration that the software is protected by starforce, and no specific information included about the effects of it. Under your legalese, it would be perfectly acceptable for programmers to include a virus with the game and call it "software". It also doesnt fall under the category of software utility, as starforce is hardly for the personal use of the buyer. The ability to ignore all responsibility for products via disclaimers seems to be making the world a cold and inhuman place. If you want to remain unempowered against large corporations, fine, accept your fate.
Ok ill finalise on this.
It is rather simple. The protections are part of the game which you are installing.
All protections have been done the same way from securom, to ProtectCD etc.
So when your all moaning about SF why not go the full hog and bycott the other protections while your at it?
And to be honest, all ive seen with people who have problems with SF is the ones trying to run a copy of it and not the original.
Im not saying everyone who has an original should be 100% working, in the PC market nothing is 100%, with different specs of machines etc.
But ill guarantee you, people who have it illegally will be the ones with the most problems.
And again, no matter what you say, game protections are part of a game it comes packaged with it, no if's or but's or maybe's, it has been and always will be.
I too will finalize on this!
All we are trying to say is we should be made aware an intrusive Protection is being installed as well as the actual game etc. The EULA should really say something in regards to the word 'Protection'. It is the game developers right to protect thier investment but it is also the consumers right to have all the facts and info supplied to them in a non misleading manner. The word 'Software' is misleading!
Many valid points have been made in these Starforce threads, and everyone has made others more aware of what may happen to thier systems.
@ Dabhand
Thanks for your arguments, before any decent discussion (come argument) can happen thier needs to be two sides, and you supplied the other side. As much as I dont agree with your side I really can acknowledge where you are coming from. But I still dont understand why you cant see what we are trying to say?
I do hope thier are no hard feelings. You have your views and we all have ours, and everyone is entitled to thier views. (however heated we may become expressing those views! ;)
Alias101
19-05-2005, 08:04
I agree 100% with both Grumpy & DABhand, both valid points. I would tend to lean towards Grumpy because as its stands, we are left open for publishers to install anything on our pc under the term "software".
My Idea is one that involves both Grumpy & DABhand taken even more time out of there life to help us all and develope the "perfect" protection between them :p
Alias
prollfin
19-05-2005, 09:20
IMHO the problem is that people just CANNOT buy enough to satisfy game companies. I don't think they need to complain.
For example, how many games are released by EA every year? I don't know, but on their website, they got like 30 games in the list of current ones (only PC platform). And that's only EA. If EA releases about 30 games a year, how many people (buyers) are needed to match their calculations? I don't want to say anything wrong, but be shure that it's a damn lot. Germany for example (which is one of the big markets for video games), 25 million copies were sold last year (only games). That means that almost one third of all germans bought a video game. But we all know that it's far from being one third of all germans playing video games (at least, I hope that all of you know that). So 25 million copies sold is everything but "not enough".
So even with companies releasing 30 games a year, 25 million copies sold should be enough to cover every game makers expenses (again, for the german market only), because with about 500 major game releases a year (not only PC, but also consoles), every single game could sell 50.000 copies. Just think about that.
I think the main problem is that software companies just don't seem to get it that you can't make 50.000 copies with ANYTHING. If a game sucks, nobody is going to buy it, no matter what efforts it took to develope it. And I don't think you can blame the customers for that.
Edit: I too won't buy any more SF protected games. I got Codename: Panzers and Trackmania here, I had problems with both of them and I won't accept some strange STARFORCE COMPANY secretly doing something to my system I would even allow Microsoft to do...
Give this a read it's worth it.
http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000477025364/
@dajunka
Nice find! Thanks, Its nice to know we are not alone. ;)
I have an idea how to make cracking Splinter Cell3: Chaos Theory a lot easier. On www.direct2drive.com you can download the game for 50$. But this version has a modified Starforce3. You obviously cannot download the whole DVD with all it's hardware protections and physical structure. And u can even mount this version, since u download it to your harddrive. On other forums ppl even confirm that this version HAS a different, much milder starforce version, without serious DVD checking, only online validation system(just like Steam).The only problem is the hardware-code checking and issues on cd-keys.
Even tough this D2D service is only avaible in North-America, I think this could be the key to crack the game at last. Tricking that validating system shouldn't be so hard - Half Life 2's Steam was quite easily bypassed -. Game costs 50$ there, but some cracker groups should try my idea I think. Any opinions?
steam easily bypassed? yeh right (ie: you are talking out of your arse)
I could be wrong about all this but here is my point of view.
Yup, the way it's going one day buying a PC game would even more expensive and installation - a nightmare. Sucks hard. This would probably make more and more poeple choose a console instead of a PC. This sucks even harder. This whole thing with protection and piracy is a vicious circle. Like all things it has its start. Back in the old days PC games were made by enthusiasts and without the idea of earing tons of money. Slowly but surely some poeple couldn't have helped noticing there's a lot of potential in the PC games industry, so they said to themselves: 'Hey, let's make a profit out of this.' And it began. Piracy most likely began as a way to prove onesself and without the idea to be in the way of sales. But as human beings and competition being a part of our blood, more and more 'pirates' turned up. The baby gaming industry felt threatend by these acts of 'piracy'. Here is the turning point. Instead of sitting down and thinking it over (or maybe not thinking it over enough) they decided that the solution should be game protection and higher prices. 'Pirates' see this as a challenge and the wheel started rolling. I could describe it as a game of PONG. Instead of making nice offers, publishers choose the hard way.
Example in my home country of Bulgaria: yup, piracy heaven there, accoridng to many people. True, in a way. But let's think why this is happening. People with a monthly salory of around 200 euro simply CAN'T afford to buy legal software. Let's take Windows as a subject. Instead of lowering prices a lot and thus gaining customers and some profit, the piracy hunters keep prices high and thus making poeple turn to warez and, obviously, depriving from even the little money they could have earned. In fact i DO know people who would buy 1 or 2 pieces of software either because they would like to support the deserving developers or simply to know they have at least 1 piece of legal software. In a place like this a legal copy is somewhat prestige BUT only if the prices were acceptable.
Piracy will exist as long as there's something to crack (pirateize?). Companies are trying to STOP piracy instead of trying to decrease its effect. That's the mistake. The harder you strike, the angrier your opponent will get and the harder he would try to strike back. Human nature.
Software developers and publishers DO deserve support and NOT capitalists. Today's such companies are more like capitalists than developers and publishers.
Joe Forster/STA
01-06-2005, 08:52
By the way,
I talked about this digital piracy stuff with my 60+ year old :) mom recently and she told me that, when Guttenberg invented printing, lots of people went broke because they were making a living out of copying codexes manually. With the invention of printing stuff in as many copies as needed, their work became completely redundant. (Unless you want real facsimiles, that is, but let's stick to the normal customers instead.) And, you can bet, that there were lots of copies that we would now call "bootlegs" or "pirated copies" back then, too, only there were no money-hungry monopolies and governments yet to make laws against this because the technology was too new.
She said that new technologies have changed and will change the attitude of society to acquiring/duplicating stuff. It's not a question, only a matter of time.
Joe
chaosmaster
01-06-2005, 10:39
But at your example the gutenberg technology was made, to make write and sale a book easier! Every book was written by hand and so there could only be sold some copies of the work of an author! But the publishers of games only think to protect their games against copy pirates, but with starforce it doesn't only protect the game to be copied, it also can make your system instable and that's not the reason, copy protections were inventet!
SuspiciousJedi
01-06-2005, 16:46
Hello everyone, I joined just to be able to discuss this.
First point to make here is that Starforce or for that matter any other copy protection is not initially part of the product it is protecting because it is being added by publisher.
Second point is that the law has precedence over EULA. Or at least it should have. In other words, some company from USA shouldn't have the right to revoke Hungarian (French, German, British, ...) right to make one backup copy for personal use guaranteed by their local law.
Moreover, I am really sick of that "no reliability" bull. Lets try simple analogy. Computer = car, software = car driver. What if taxi driver presented you with such "no reliability" EULA? Would you click on "yes"?
As burning you mean with Alcohol I guess, I have blindwrite and nero and ive yet to have the same problem as you said.
Who are they to judge whether I can use Alcohol or whether I should use Nero instead? I believe they don't have that right.
... the protection is part of the game which you install.
There is no doubt about that, but where is that darn thing identified as being part of it?
All protections have been done the same way from securom, to ProtectCD etc.
First of all, starforce is not a software, it is a combination of drivers and the software it protects.
As such, it is invasive and by any means TOO MUCH invasive thing to have on your computer. Why?
Alcohol 120%, Daemon tools and any other virtual drive applications as well as Soft-Ice, Regmon, Filemon are legitimate software tools whatever you may think about them and people who use them. No one has the right from stopping me to use them on daily basis and to have images of this and that what I otherwise own in my virtual CDs.
Examples:
#1 - I want to listen to a CD while I play the game, I can't because I must put the game CD inside even though it is not really needed. I make virtual game CD of my original and put it in virtual drive and it doesn't work. I make virtual music CD of my music CD and put it in the virtual drive leaving the original game CD in physical drive and it doesn't work because either way it gets blocked by Starforce. I could rip audio CD to mp3 and play it from WinAMP but I am an audio purist and I don't like listening to mp3s. It is my constitutional right to differ from the others.
#2 - I want to play a DVD movie to a family member via my second sound card and the TV out while I am playing but that is not possible with Starforce too.
#3 - I want to use Soft-Ice debugger to debug my own software or the driver I am writting for my company. Now what?
#4 - I want to monitor application setup so I can repackage it because 16 bit setup refuses to run on 64-bit Windows XP. I need registry/file monitoring. Now what?
Not only it is always there, it also doesn't uninstall after the game is uninstalled. You have to remove it manually. For manual removal you have to be aware that it has been installed in the first place. It is even less legitimate than spyware/adware junk that comes with some shareware applications because even that junk shows separate EULA and some of it even allow simple uninstallation from Add/Remove programs in Control Panel.
About the invasive part, the protection intercepts vital system calls to be able to create controlled environment in which the game can be run securely (trusted computing anyone?). What is wrong with that?
Well for one, it is not active only when the game is running so in my view it is a spyware. It can as well contain code to snoop on my network traffic and my keyboard and to disclose that to third parties and there is no way to check whether it does it or not because by protecting the game the way it does (on the kernel level) it protects itself from analysis too. And AFAIK the protection code is not available for public scrutiny.
So there you are, running a black box in your system which may do anything -- spy on you, restrict your other perfectly legal activities, even delete your files or do a security wipe of your hard drive on a low level or even intentionaly fry a piece of hardware because it has higher than admin priviledges (it runs in kernel mode!), and all that without you even knowing it is installed?!?
And again, no matter what you say, game protections are part of a game it comes packaged with it, no if's or but's or maybe's, it has been and always will be.
You know, even simple things like deodorants or detergents or food have their ingredients listed because certain people are alergic to some of them and those people avoid buying it because it could harm them. Same logic can be applied here so I am afraid your point is not valid here.
Examples:
#1 - I want to listen to a CD while I play the game, I can't because I must put the game CD inside even though it is not really needed. I make virtual game CD of my original and put it in virtual drive and it doesn't work. I make virtual music CD of my music CD and put it in the virtual drive leaving the original game CD in physical drive and it doesn't work because either way it gets blocked by Starforce. I could rip audio CD to mp3 and play it from WinAMP but I am an audio purist and I don't like listening to mp3s. It is my constitutional right to differ from the others.
>> blocked by starforce? since when did starforce interfere with audio disks?
#2 - I want to play a DVD movie to a family member via my second sound card and the TV out while I am playing but that is not possible with Starforce too.
>> since when did starforce protect dvd's (movies that is)
#3 - I want to use Soft-Ice debugger to debug my own software or the driver I am writting for my company. Now what?
>> simple, you reboot and dont load softice
#4 - I want to monitor application setup so I can repackage it because 16 bit setup refuses to run on 64-bit Windows XP. I need registry/file monitoring. Now what?
>> regmon/filemon from sys internals?
Well for one, it is not active only when the game is running so in my view it is a spyware. It can as well contain code to snoop on my network traffic and my keyboard and to disclose that to third parties and there is no way to check whether it does it or not because by protecting the game the way it does (on the kernel level) it protects itself from analysis too. And AFAIK the protection code is not available for public scrutiny.
>> again the network traffic CAN be monitored, theres tons of network analysys programs out there, that can capture packets etc
You know, even simple things like deodorants or detergents or food have their ingredients listed because certain people are alergic to some of them and those people avoid buying it because it could harm them. Same logic can be applied here so I am afraid your point is not valid here.
theres logic, and then theres paranoia, and then theres jumping to conclusions without first researching the topic you're discussing, which category do you belong in?
Game publishers/etc DO have the right to expect those playing their game to purchase a legal copy and NOT pirate it. There have been reasons put forth (like games being priced out of the reach of many people and so on) that attempt to justify piracy, but those are MOSTLY excuses.
I DO agree that games are priced WAY too high considering what you GET in many cases - one or more CD's with (usually) VERY buggy code. And the profits mostly end up NOT in the hands of those who worked so hard to CREATE the game...
But I digress... Copy protection as it is being developed now SUCKS!!! People KNOW that they should not pirate games and other software, but those who are DETERMINED to get their games/software at a five-finger-discount are GOING to find a way REGARDLESS how "difficult" it is made.
Copy protection schemes like Starforce and Valve's Steam activation are NOT going to prevent - or even SLOW DOWN - piracy. ...Well, maybe slow down for a short time, until the hackers figure out one of the many ways AROUND the CP scheme(s)!!!
In essence, adding all this CP crap to games is only accomplishing the following:
1) It is adding to the prices of the software. (Come on!!! You didn't think that CP schemes just magically appeared FREE to the software companies, did you?!!!)
2) It adds an extra area where bugs can creep into an already buggy piece of software. (Have you EVER seen a piece of software without ANY bugs in it???)
3) It adds an "extreme annoyance" factor to the HONEST and LEGITIMATE owners of the software!!!
4)... There are probably many more points that could be added here, but I don't feel inclined to waste more of my time itemizing them right now.
I am probably both one of the BIGGEST supporters of the computer gaming industry and one of the most IRRITATED!!! I currently have IN MY POSSESSION on original disks/cd's/dvd's and with original manuals and boxes over $20,000.00 worth of computer games. ...Yes, you read that RIGHT!!! Over TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS US!!! And that doesn't include games that, over the past years, I have lost, given to friends and relatives, or just donated to some charitable organization.
I ALSO am a HUGE proponent of software like Alcohol, Virtual Drive, and so on. While I have literally MANY HUNDREDS of disks, cd's and dvd's, it would be a MAJOR PAIN IN THE <TUSH> if I had to keep looking for and changing the media every time I wanted to play a different game!!! In fact, I recently purchased a 300 GB HD which is dedicated to NOTHING BUT virtual disk files so that at the MOST all I have to do now is click/mount a virtual CD file to play any game I want.
Yeah, probably a bit extreme, and certainly a little costly, but the convenience is WORTH it!!! In fact, one game that I DEARLY wanted to try was HL2, but due to the type of hoops that Valve is making its customers jump thru JUST TO INSTALL the game - let alone PLAY it!!! - I have vowed that until a no-cd crack is developed such that I can install the game and play it WITHOUT having to connect online, I will fore-go the pleasure of playing that game. And just to point out that it is NOT an issue of not wanting to pay for the game, a friend of mine offered to lend me HIS copy (along with his Steam account so that I could install/play it), but I told him that I wasn't interested!
I work HARD to squeeze EVERY BYTE of power from my computer, and anything that threatens to drain even ONE of those precious bytes is going to meet with my STRONG opposition.
Bottom line, software producers NEED our support to continue to produce the stuff that we like to play on our computers, and so we should SUPPORT them financially by BUYING their games rather than pirating them. BUT when situations come up like Starforce and Steam Activation, I propose a TOTAL BOYCOTT of those companies until they REALIZE that the wrath of HONEST CONSUMERS is FAR WORSE than the piddling losses they will suffer IN ANY CASE at the hands of pirates who would not pay for the software under ANY circumstances! :cool:
SuspiciousJedi
02-06-2005, 04:06
blocked by starforce? since when did starforce interfere with audio disks?
since when did starforce protect dvd's (movies that is)
It does not but you can't have another disk except the game disk in the drive while you play, or can you?
simple, you reboot and dont load softice
And that was your answer to this:
#3 - I want to use Soft-Ice debugger to debug my own software or the driver I am writting for my company. Now what?
I was not asking how to play a game, I was asking what should I do if I am a developer? How to debug when those drivers that block debuggers are installed? I am wondering are you using your reading abilities at all?
regmon/filemon from sys internals?
Right, those two.
again the network traffic CAN be monitored, theres tons of network analysys programs out there, that can capture packets etc
You do not understand this obviously. Since the Starforce is comprised of not less than 4 kernel drivers they can send packets directly without those ever being seen by firewall or network analysis programs. What is even worse, hardware firewalls included in routers are not designed to prevent outgoing communication so they cannot stop Starforce from sending date without you knowing it either.
theres logic, and then theres paranoia, and then theres jumping to conclusions without first researching the topic you're discussing, which category do you belong in?
Logic is simple -- I do not wish anything that may affect the functionality of my whole computer or it's parts in uncontrollable manner to install without my consent and permission. Moreover, I do not wish to buy anything that doesn't list it's full requirements on the box. There is no valid argument against this. Period.
I am certainly not jumping to conclusion because I have seen how this stealth injection technology works before Starforce has been made. There is a sample source code floating around and even some tools from sysinternals use some of those techniques now used against them.
One example is regmon which monitors registry access by hooking to registry APIs. Starforce not only hooks vital system APIs but it goes even further to hide itself so you don't even see it is doing it.
The method used for patching into the OS kernel can be seen as a security breach because it is not using any Microsoft approved means of interacting and hooking into the system therefore your system may not work as intended after installing it. Having such a thing in your system could void your support with Microsoft -- those drivers aren't even certified by Microsoft meaning they can cause you all sorts of trouble.
Now, could you possibly explain this to me:
What is the point of all hardware manufacturers going through the trouble of obtaining WHQL cetrification from Microsoft to ensure stability and normal functioning of your dearly paid system when a stinking game can install unsigned drivers from the third party without your consent, whose interaction with the OS does not adhere to specifications set by OS manufacturer, and can endanger all your hardware/software/data just by sitting there and intercepting vital system functions let alone doing anything?!?
I suggest you to do some research on the subject instead of trusting or doubting my judgement or sanity. As someone pointed earlier check this (http://www.oreans.com/secureengine/), and don't forget to read about all the technologies involved (bottom of the page) because Starforce does include many of them.
[QUOTE=SuspiciousJedi]It does not but you can't have another disk except the game disk in the drive while you play, or can you?
>> nope, but if the game wants you to have the cd/dvd in the drive then you have little or no choice do you, if you want to play it legally
I was not asking how to play a game, I was asking what should I do if I am a developer? How to debug when those drivers that block debuggers are installed? I am wondering are you using your reading abilities at all?
>> debugging those drivers would infringe the 'no reversing' poilicy in the eula wouldnt it, which would be illegal, however if you were a decent developer then you would know how to hide your debugger from the detections used and then debug it if you wanted to
You do not understand this obviously. Since the Starforce is comprised of not less than 4 kernel drivers they can send packets directly without those ever being seen by firewall or network analysis programs. What is even worse, hardware firewalls included in routers are not designed to prevent outgoing communication so they cannot stop Starforce from sending date without you knowing it either.
i am VERY framiliar with starforce and its drivers, NONE of those drivers have inet functionality and they can NOT send stuff out without accessing the network drivers, which should in turn be linked to the firewall (software), it just cant magically make a packet and send it, it has to interface to the ndis driver layer at the very least
i agree with your view though about the stability of your computer being hindered by the starforce 'layer', and yes starforce use some 'non standard' methods of hooking system api's, whats worse is that the last time i checked these hooks were global and not process based which can definately lead to some 'issues', regarding the whql issue, i think the whql is optional and you have to pay for it, and chances are the starforce people know it will fail on some tests, so paying for the whql is pointless from their view
SuspiciousJedi
02-06-2005, 19:36
nope, but if the game wants you to have the cd/dvd in the drive then you have little or no choice do you, if you want to play it legally
If I bought the game why it would be illegal to play it without the CD in the drive? Do you understand how the law works? Basic principle of law and justice says that everyone is innocent until (or unless) proven otherwise.
What this whole game copy protection scam and not just Starforce does is twisting the way the law and justice usually works into completely OPPOSITE scheme -- you are guilty unless you can prove you are innocent by having the CD in the drive. That is rediculous.
debugging those drivers would infringe the 'no reversing' poilicy in the eula wouldnt it, which would be illegal, however if you were a decent developer then you would know how to hide your debugger from the detections used and then debug it if you wanted to
You got me wrong again -- I do not want to debug their drivers, I want to be able to debug apps and drivers I wrote and I can't while Starforce is installed because it prevents any kind of debugging.
i am VERY framiliar with starforce and its drivers, NONE of those drivers have inet functionality and they can NOT send stuff out without accessing the network drivers, which should in turn be linked to the firewall (software), it just cant magically make a packet and send it, it has to interface to the ndis driver layer at the very least
Maybe they don't have it YET, maybe it has to interface so what?
In my view the main problem is that Starforce has unsupervised access to whole physical memory space because it is a kernel driver running in ring0. That means it could write into firewall memory space. That means it could also patch into other drivers. That means it could snoop and/or steal sensitive data such as credit-card numbers from your RAM and disclose it to the third party. It could open so much hated popup windows and waste your bandwidth on downloading targeted ads without you having any way of stopping it.
I am not saying it is doing it right now, just that it is possible and if we allow this we can expect to see those scenarios in the near future. There are already plans to display ads in games while you play, google for it.
What we have here is a double standard -- publishers do not trust their customers treating them as thieves until proven otherwise and at the same time they expect from customers to cast aside all doubts about publisher's "honest" intentions meaning that we should treat them as honest until someone proves otherwise. Shouldn't law be equally applied to everyone?
whats worse is that the last time i checked these hooks were global and not process based which can definately lead to some 'issues',
Hooks must be global so it can hide itself. My issue list sorted by order of importance is:
- privacy
- stability
- performance
Second and third options can be tuned over time but IMO they should not be our primary concern. People give up on privacy and control over their own stuff too easily when they should fight for all they are worth for.
regarding the whql issue, i think the whql is optional and you have to pay for it, and chances are the starforce people know it will fail on some tests, so paying for the whql is pointless from their view
WHQL is optional but products using non-certified drivers cannot get "Designed for Windows" logo. Consider this scenario:
You go out and buy video card. Being a product which has passed WHQL certification it rightfully carries "Designed for Windows" logo because it comes with signed drivers. In the package you also get a bundled game or a demo protected with Starforce.
Real problem here is that by including unsigned Starforce drivers in the bundle, video card OEM does not qualify for that "Designed for Windows" logo anymore. You have based your buying decisions upon logo existance so both the OEM and you are screwed.
If I bought the game why it would be illegal to play it without the CD in the drive? Do you understand how the law works? Basic principle of law and justice says that everyone is innocent until (or unless) proven otherwise.
>> unless you are american ;p and yep i understand how the law works, far too well
What this whole game copy protection scam and not just Starforce does is twisting the way the law and justice usually works into completely OPPOSITE scheme -- you are guilty unless you can prove you are innocent by having the CD in the drive. That is rediculous.
>> agreed, but short of online authentication the only 'sure' way they know you have the game is to 'force' you to have the cd/dvd rom in the drive
You got me wrong again -- I do not want to debug their drivers, I want to be able to debug apps and drivers I wrote and I can't while Starforce is installed because it prevents any kind of debugging.
>> hmm just tested that and you appear to be wrong i had no problems loading softice with the starforce drivers loaded, it only ****s up when you load a starforce game and the drivers then get activated
Maybe they don't have it YET, maybe it has to interface so what?
In my view the main problem is that Starforce has unsupervised access to whole physical memory space because it is a kernel driver running in ring0. That means it could write into firewall memory space. That means it could also patch into other drivers. That means it could snoop and/or steal sensitive data such as credit-card numbers from your RAM and disclose it to the third party. It could open so much hated popup windows and waste your bandwidth on downloading targeted ads without you having any way of stopping it.
I am not saying it is doing it right now, just that it is possible and if we allow this we can expect to see those scenarios in the near future. There are already plans to display ads in games while you play, google for it.
>> yep anythings possible agreed, but its probably best to wait for it to happen and then deal with it as opposed to trying a pre emtive move
What we have here is a double standard -- publishers do not trust their customers treating them as thieves until proven otherwise and at the same time they expect from customers to cast aside all doubts about publisher's "honest" intentions meaning that we should treat them as honest until someone proves otherwise. Shouldn't law be equally applied to everyone?
>> the law works for the industry, not the end user, that much can be seen from how many new laws have been introduced
Hooks must be global so it can hide itself. My issue list sorted by order of importance is:
- privacy
- stability
- performance
Second and third options can be tuned over time but IMO they should not be our primary concern. People give up on privacy and control over their own stuff too easily when they should fight for all they are worth for.
WHQL is optional but products using non-certified drivers cannot get "Designed for Windows" logo. Consider this scenario:
You go out and buy video card. Being a product which has passed WHQL certification it rightfully carries "Designed for Windows" logo because it comes with signed drivers. In the package you also get a bundled game or a demo protected with Starforce.
Real problem here is that by including unsigned Starforce drivers in the bundle, video card OEM does not qualify for that "Designed for Windows" logo anymore. You have based your buying decisions upon logo existance so both the OEM and you are screwed.
yep cavat emptor aint it ;)
ric_hornet
03-06-2005, 08:33
You can count on me in boycotting SF protection as well!
I only SF protected game that I bought and own is Silent Hunter III, which I was expecting for a very long time. But I will NOT buy SF protected games anymore even if it's an highly anticipated release like Silent Hunter III.
SuspiciousJedi
03-06-2005, 11:06
agreed, but short of online authentication the only 'sure' way they know you have the game is to 'force' you to have the cd/dvd rom in the drive
Well, the only sure way for the waiter in the restaurant to know that you won't run away after you have eaten your meal without paying for it is to trust you, and not to cuff you to the table leg and stand right by you whole time you are eating? Or thay do that in America?
Anyway, if I am legitimate owner then that cd-must-be-in-the-drive stuff annoys me because my proof of purchase is my bill and the money in their pockets and the one who steals doesn't have to prove anything (because of a no-cd crack) so it sorta turns out that it is better not to be honest?!?
One thing you are right, law works for them, not for end users. That should be stopped.
Joe Forster/STA
03-06-2005, 11:21
@chaosmaster: The Gutenberg (you're right, it's written with a single T, sorry!) example wasn't that stupid as it introduced a new media technology, with a much better level of "copyability". Similarly, digital media and digital content have been introduced exactly because they are easy to duplicate. From one point of view, copy protection of digital content is extremely silly as it works (read: tries to work ;) ) against the greatest advantage of the media, the very reason for its existence!
i dont know about them chaining you to a table when eating in america, im not american, and wont ever travel to america if i can help it, i was just citing america because of all its ****ed up laws, like the dmca, the net act (no electronic theft.. introduced by clinton), and how their laws favor the industry as opposed to the end user, sure they have the 'fairplay' policy, but that doesnt really amount to much when balanced against the other 'acts', even looking at the penalties involved for piracy in the usa, you can get more jail time for piracy than you would for rape or murder, that to me is just totally ****ed up, and with the other various bills that are intended to be passed you'll soon see emulation software/copying software being illegal, infact if im not mistaken such software is already illegal in germany.. if you have the money you can buy the politicians and the cops,and the industry for sure has that money..
If I was given a choice between a game with Starforce protection or a game with an Online Activation (like HL2) I would honestly prefer the online activation!
Starforce messes with your system and can cause hassles with other programs the whole time! And does their Starforce Clean really fix those hassles? Starforce doesnt tell you its installing!
Online Activation however is only a hassle for a short time, thats during the actual activation (except for dialup users, the hassle could be a longer one). Online activation tells you what is happening, it is not hidden from you! Once the game is activated you dont have anymore 'hidden' hassles. Like with HL2, once the game has earnt its profits they can release a patch so you dont need the disc to play, they can possibly even release a patch to stop the online activation?
But even if a starforce game has earnt its profits, and they release a patch for you to be able to play without the disc, would you really be free of the problems starforce has already created for you system?
I really dont like the Online Activation, it is a hassle but nowhere near the hassle of Starforce!
Agree with all these sentiments about Starf*** totally!
My story is that I installed it on a clean PC, which immediately died with BSODs etc. Starf*** told me it was nothing to do with them- When this was the first thing I installed on a clean system- I DONT THINK SO!!!
No objections whatsoever to online activation, but on the comment about Steam being easy to crack, that's true as long as you have a legal key for any Steam game. (Won't say no more) However, online activation MUST be acessible for dialup users, the one reason why I don't own HL2.
-Leezer-
ripper_george
05-06-2005, 13:28
Hi.
I'm not that expert on computing, but I know the basics.
On our topic, the only game I have which has starfoce protection is silent hunter 3, and I purchased it only because I was waiting years for this game. But Starforce really gave me ****. My PC is going slower than a tortoise, I can't back up the original sh3 disk, and generally I paid about 50 euros, to get a ****ing buggy software with the game. I didn't know silent hunter 3 was a starforce 3 protected software and generally I didn't know much about protection.
Could anyone please expain me in more details how starforce works and in which drives it probably causes damage??? I paid a fortune for my dvd-rw and I don't want to get it devastated cuz of an idiot bug. Does it encypt any files of the game???
How can I get rid of it??? If I uninstall the game, will I uninstall starforce too??
Is there any anti-virus that can detect starforce files and erase them???
I don't want it running and use some of my RAM memory.
Damn'it if I knew that I would have that trouble cuz of the game's protection, I would have never bought this game. :mad:
Any replies would be appreciated...
Thanks. :o
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