View Full Version : Should I read at lower speeds?
I have Lite-On 52x/24x/52x CD-RW with latest firmware.
So far I tried to burn (backup) only one game with it - BF1942 and I used Alcohol 120%. I read that Bypass EFM error has to be unchecked (or use SafeDisk 1 settings, but the game is SafeDisk 2 protected).
Well, I read at speed of 52x and burnt at 52x
I could NOT makr a perfect backup, I tried 3 times, and it does not detect the CD as the original.
Should I read or burn at lower speeds?
Any other ideas why I can't make 1:1 copies?
Note: I got latest drivers for my IDE controller, etc.
why not try answering your question yourself and actually try reading at a lower speed and seeing what happens.. trial and error
It takes too long, my CD-RW won't work with Alcohol 120% unless its in PIO mode which is SLOW even at 52x...
The only thing I can also try is set the PRECISION thing to HIGH from NORMAL.
Read with 4x speed -> use Safedisc 2 profile.
Write at 4x or 8x with the SafeDisc 2 profile to.Should work.
If you need to do it very fast than try to burn at 16x-24x but when making an image use a low speed reading to create a good image :) My friend burned a CD at 52x and it was unreable (LG) :(
Hmms, should I use the HIGH precision thing too?
No : High Precision is only for CDs that are protected with physical meansurment protection like CD-COPS , StarForce.You have a simple SD 2
Hmm...Vluka's guide says MAX SPEED everywhere....
IceBreaker
03-08-2003, 16:22
Machina ,
I do not know this game - 'BF1942'.
However I do own an LTR 52246S myself and have never made non-working dumps despite constantly setting clonecd/blindwrite reading speed to Max, whether I wuz dealing with Safedisk 2.xx, Securom 4.8x, or whatever...
Have-you got ClonyXXL (http://cd-rw.org/software/cdr_software/cdr_tools/clonyxxl.cfm#download) latest version? If so, what protection exactly does it indicate ?
If it's safedisk 2.8 or later, then forget about alcohol 120%, or even clonecd - indeed the limitation comes from the software, not the writer, for your Litey does offer full pregap-reading support, but neither alcohol nor clonecd do bother to read the pregap - they just generate it, leaving the protection unshaken :mad: . Discjuggler is known to be able to read all the lead-in data (which comprises pregap), as long as the reader/writer allows it, which is your case. Otherwise, U could give Blindwrite 4.2 or later a try...
He who laughs last has the slowest internet connection
I was using Alcohol 120%, and the game is SafeDisk 2.8 I think (I know its SafeDisk 2 for sure).
I read about how to burn it, followed all the intructions, but the copy does not work...
IceBreaker
03-08-2003, 16:35
Originally posted by Machina
I was using Alcohol 120%, and the game is SafeDisk 2.8 I think (I know its SafeDisk 2 for sure).
I read about how to burn it, followed all the intructions, but the copy does not work...
Hey slow down man, U replied too fast I was still editing my previous post :D :D . Do read it again...
I've been using BlindWrite before Alcohol 120% and I do not remember being able to edit many settings there (does it figure out what protection is used by itself?) , and it says that Alcohol 120% has a higher precision reading or something...
I did like BlindWrite, but from what I heard, it does not make 1:1 copies, it uses other ways to make WORKABLE copies...
Maybe I should try it again...
I made working copies of Morrowind with my Plextor 16x CD-RW and BlindWrite...
IceBreaker
04-08-2003, 10:28
Originally posted by Machina
...
I did like BlindWrite, but from what I heard, it does not make 1:1 copies, it uses other ways to make WORKABLE copies...
Maybe I should try it again...
I made working copies of Morrowind with my Plextor 16x CD-RW and BlindWrite...
When VSO released their 4.2 blindwrite version, at that time they claimed that theirs was the only software capable of making 1:1 copies of safedisk 2.8 without any workaround needed, provided the writer wuz up to it. I'd advise U give it a try (! remember 2 disable weak sector amplification !) - with safedisk 2.x, in theory there is no need to Xtract subchannel data. But if you do, disregard Clonyxxl advice, for the 52246S is known to be far better at extracting subchannel data at high speed :confused: (yes seems unbelievable to me too, but I copied UT2003 using Blindwrite at max read speed, successfully), so set read speed to max.
In theory, the 52246S (and even some previous LTRs) is 'ideal' for safedisk 2.xx schemes, even 2.8 & 2.9
However I've had contradictory reports concerning safedisk 2.8
Indeed on one hand I've heard that safedisk 2.8+ was specifically aimed at 'targetting the LTR 52246S's 6S chipset' - the @%*$¤§#! bastards :mad: (anyways future Liteys such as 52327S will have new chipsets hehe...)
On the other hand I've had multiple reports of successful 1:1 safedisk 2.8 or even 2.9 backups created with this same writer, without any emulation needed...
Besides, to me having a protection scheme target a specific chipset simply doesn't make sense, since software can only interact directly with a device's firmware, not its chipset.
what is your firmware revision? (mine is '6SOF' - the latest :cool: )
Yes, thats my firmware version.
Well, I hate having more than one utility to burn CDs. I use NERO for all the normal stuff, and now use Alcohol 120% for backups.
I NEED Alcohol 120%, without it, I cannot install Gothic 2 backup - I use Alcohol's emulation for it to install properly...
IceBreaker
04-08-2003, 12:07
Originally posted by Machina
...
Well, I hate having more than one utility to burn CDs. I use NERO for all the normal stuff, and now use Alcohol 120% for backups.
I NEED Alcohol 120%, without it, I cannot install Gothic 2 backup - I use Alcohol's emulation for it to install properly... [/B]
If Gothic 2 has Securom 4.8xx, Blindwrite+BWAbuilder can allow U to successfully backup the game using "static" securom emultation, ie. you won't need any active emulator, any program whatsoever running in the background upon game launch! :)
But one must remember to giev the BWA file the same name as the BWT image & place it in the same folder...
Have U tried again backing up BF1942 (safedisk 2.8) using BW with your Liteon (4 trial & error any blank CD-RW will suffice)???
Not yet...
Not going to, for some reason, my Lite-On CD-RW doesn't detect the CD as the original, but my DVD-ROM does...
My friend's CD-ROM detects it as the original CD, and another's guy CD-RW, but not my Lite-On! :mad:
IceBreaker
04-08-2003, 12:41
Originally posted by Machina
Not yet...
Not going to, for some reason, my Lite-On CD-RW doesn't detect the CD as the original, but my DVD-ROM does...
My friend's CD-ROM detects it as the original CD, and another's guy CD-RW, but not my Lite-On! :mad:
Affirmative mon ami, that is normal - and I think I know why :cool:
You have used Alcohol 120 to dump the BF1942 cd image. As I previously pointed out, although your burner supports reading pregap, Alcohol does NOT implement it (though it supports writing pregap). Ipso facto, your backup does not have the correct pregap. But since the 52246S is able to read the lead-in, the games checks for the correct pregap when you insert backup CD in the 52246S. However if you insert the same backup (or even the original) in another reader that has no full pregap-reading support, the game CANNOT check for pregap and therefore launches, since the developpers of the game wanted the original CD to to work in ALL drive so as to avoid possible refunds - which makes sense, non?
Therefore, if U want BF1942 backup to work, U must make a correct dump first (cf. Discjuggler or possibly BW? :D )
:) Seems like I know what is going now...
Well, going to try BlindWrite
But then, how is it that other people created perfect images of BF1942 with Alcohl 120%? Is it ever going to support the pregap thing?
I am so confused about all this copying...
Its 0s and 1s, used as gaps - why is it so hard to make something that can read 0s and 1s and copy them in the exact same order and position?
I also don't understand how VLuka asks to try on CD-RW first...
Any CD-RW I tried - says not enough space....
IceBreaker
04-08-2003, 13:21
Originally posted by Machina
:) Seems like I know what is going now...
Well, going to try BlindWrite
But then, how is it that other people created perfect images of BF1942 with Alcohl 120%? Is it ever going to support the pregap thing?
...
I Xplained it! The backups created using only Whisky 120%, although they were NOT 1:1, worked only because the drives they were tested in did not support pregap reading (that's the only reason I can think of) -> games sees that drive can't read pregap -> game can't check pregap -> game skips pregap check.
...
I am so confused about all this copying...
Its 0s and 1s, used as gaps - why is it so hard to make something that can read 0s and 1s and copy them in the exact same order and position?
I'm more of a newbie in the matter, but as far as I know:
Unlike RAW writing, which really IS raw (ie. drive writes without bothering about the data it is writing), RAW reading cannot be 100% raw since the reader HAS to "understand" to a small extent what is being read, mainly to tell the difference between real read errors due to scratches etc.. (which can sometimes be corrected by the reader thanks to EFM modulation) and deliberate (C2) errors which must be copied 'as are', without correction. Part of the subchannel data must also be interpreted by the reader (thus not read in RAW fashion), such as sector position on CD - and Tagès scheme makes use of this :mad:
So U C, the closest on can get real RAW-reading is perhaps by switching off reader's hardware error-correction (if it allows it) - but in doing so, unless you have a CD-ROM in PERFECT state AND you read at 1x, you're bound to end up with a sh*tload of errors in your image file...
Gr...
OK, the Alcohol 120% thing.
I was saying that some people used it and made a perfect 1:1 image with the gap thing or whatever, they used Lite-On CD-RWs...
And for the second one - I think they should make a special device that does not have to understand anything, just read and write, maybe it should not even attach to a PC...
IceBreaker
04-08-2003, 17:08
Originally posted by Machina
...
I think they should make a special device that does not have to understand anything, just read and write, maybe it should not even attach to a PC... [/B]
Dream on :D
Such a device would have to do WITHOUT using EFM redundancy (ie. without internal error correction, or ECC) - and the possibility of there being the slightest spot, let alone scratch, on the surface of a data CD makes EFM encoding, and thus error correction, compulsory to be able to correct the resulting read errors AND distinguish these from C2 (fake) errors, ie. safedisk & co.
Besides, even if it were possible to keep a CD perfectly smooth & intact ( :rolleyes: ), this device - deprived of ECC - would call on almost "supernatural" accuracy to be able to read every pit & land without making a single mistake!
So I'm sorry to say this, but forget it man, it's a forlorn hope - but hey, perhaps YOU could give it a try :D :D :D
Er...I thought a minor I/0 mistake would mean that data is different...and erm...
Nevermind...
IceBreaker
04-08-2003, 17:56
?
I'm stupid, nevermind, and great thanks for help...
I just don't understand...
If there is an error in binary data then the whole freaking file/installation or whatever would be screwed, but no, CD-ROMs read data just fine...so....why can't another machine read data and copy it....
How do they do it at factories? I heard they like STAPLE an image onto a CD...
IceBreaker
05-08-2003, 05:21
Originally posted by Machina
...
I just don't understand...
If there is an error in binary data then the whole freaking file/installation or whatever would be screwed, but no, CD-ROMs read data just fine...so....why can't another machine read data and copy it....
...
As I told U, the reader manages to read data correctly thanks 2 EFM redundancy - data is sort of like "repeated" on the CD, allowing reader's internal error correction to correct the data if the damage is not too great (minor scratches, etc...). However because of the necessity of this error correction AND because of the existence of fake errors part of some copy-protection schemes, 100% RAW reading is impossible, for the reader will HAVE to "understand" to some extent what it is reading - it is inevitable, Mr Anderson... :cool:
...
How do they do it at factories? I heard they like STAPLE an image onto a CD...
CD-ROMs have a metallic surface as far as I know
CD-Rs have a surface covered with a colored, non-metallic substance
In factories, they make CD-ROMs, not CD-Rs. Since CD-ROMs are metallic, they are "etched", or pressed: there are pits & lands, the pits are cut by powerful lasers.
But we - the average users - don't have CD-pressers, which are not sold on the market anyways. We use CD-Rs, and our CD-burners burn black marks onto the colored surface of the CD-R. These black pecks simulate a CD-ROM's pit. Besides, unlike factory CD-pressers, our burners' lasers are not strong enough to cut a pit into the metallic surface of a CD-ROM, so it would be pointless to buy blank CD-ROMs, if these were 2 B found on the market...:D
Early to bed and early to rise and you will make your neighbours suspicious
I still believe that a machine that can build CD-ROMs and CD-Rs perfectly can be made, if you put a good billion bucks in it...
So, if data is being repeated on a CD, then how much REAL space does a CD have? Because when I burn 300Mb file on a CD, it takes up 300Mb :D .
IceBreaker
05-08-2003, 12:29
Originally posted by Machina
I still believe that a machine that can build CD-ROMs and CD-Rs perfectly can be made, if you put a good billion bucks in it...
...
Send me the billion & I'll send you the machine :D
..
So, if data is being repeated on a CD, then how much REAL space does a CD have? Because when I burn 300Mb file on a CD, it takes up 300Mb :D .
Because of EFM encoding, a byte (8 bits) is coded into a 14-bit sequence (hence Eight to Fourteen Modulation), plus 3 "header"-bits (I think), therefore 17 bits in total. So actually, a 700 Mb CD can hold 700*17/8=1487.5 Mb of data - actually, it would be more correct to say 8*1487.5=11900 Mbits, for speaking in terms of bytes would make no sense here - but don't get carried away, for that's 1487.5 "Mb" of "incomprehensible" data, the real data (the bytes) is only 700 Mb in maximum size, after EFM decoding.
There are 10 types of people in this world - those who understand binary and those who don't
Where did you learn all this?
I am sort of getting it...
But, will there ever be CD-RWs and software than can copy SecuROM 4.8+ and etc! I am talking 1:1 copy, not workable copy.
I don't know, I think if something CAN be read, then it CAN be copied :D .
IceBreaker
05-08-2003, 14:01
Originally posted by Machina
Where did you learn all this?
...
Reading, surfing, hearsay, etc...:cool:
But hey, I'm but only a newbie in the matter
the 'cdfreaks' forum can sometimes be an interesting source of info
perhaps U could also check out 'cdrinfo.com'
...
But, will there ever be CD-RWs and software than can copy SecuROM 4.8+ and etc! I am talking 1:1 copy, not workable copy.
I don't know, I think if something CAN be read, then it CAN be copied :D .
To this day, only hardware-based copy protections, eg. based on density variation (securom 4/8xx, starforce) pose a real 1:1 copy problem - the Plextor premium is (to this day) the only burner that can reproduce sector density variations (almost)1:1. However, since all modern readers/burners can read these variations, the ability to write them is most certainly a firmware issue.
If it can be Read it can be Burnt
Besides density variations can easily be statically emulated using the Blindwrite-BWAbuilder combo, ie. without any emulator having to run in the background - to do so, BW uses the 'twinpeak' method or something.
Blindwrite+BWAbuilder seems 2B the most versatile tool (backup Safedisk 2.8+, Securom 4.8xx, etc...) however quality seems dubious at times - I once tried to backup a 'Ring-Protech new' disk (game wuz 'Inquisition', european version) using Blindwrite with 'multiple gaps' setting as recommended - it's like 'Intelligent Sector Scan' in Clonecd - and ran into a sh*tload of probs :mad: . I had to turn to clonecd with ISS on to pull it off.
Woah...
OK...
Well, I already asked, but how can I practice?
If I am to use a CD-RW - would it be JUST like CD-R?
Last time I tried, it said there was not enough space!
IceBreaker
05-08-2003, 14:59
Originally posted by Machina
Woah...
OK...
Well, I already asked, but how can I practice?
If I am to use a CD-RW - would it be JUST like CD-R?
Last time I tried, it said there was not enough space!
Yep, just like using a CD-R, Xcept that U can go back if things go wrong ;)
Were U using 650 Mb (74 min) or 700 Mb (80 min) CD-RWs? The latter is recommended, all the more so than I have never come across a CD-RW that supported overburning (3 extra minutes, ie. 30 mb roughly, was the best I got, media gets permanently damaged if one attempts some serious overburning)
IceBreaker, I do not want to disappoint you, but the problem was not in pre-gap at all.
Alcohol Developers told me that they are using another method because pre-gap is not supported by many CD-RWs.
The problem was the ATIP. It was telling the game that the plugged source is a CD-R, and SafeDisk (SafeDisk 2) has an ability to UNDERSTAND whether the source is a CD-R or CD-ROM.
There an Alcohol 120% option that allows you to HIDE ATIP, making SafeDisk think that its CD-ROM.
Its NOT emulation, once you enable the option, you do not have to run Alcohol 120% to run the game.
IT WORKS NOW!
IceBreaker
07-08-2003, 16:52
So it seems the problem was simpler than I thought, sacrebleu!
Disappointed I am not - your goal wuz to defeat this Safedisk 2.8 sh*t, right ? :D
However puzzled I am - U claim you don't need any sort of active emulation to hide ATIP since you don't have 2 run Booze 120%
About this I am more than skeptical: in fact my guess is, even though U don't run Alcohol, there is still some sort of active program (or part of a program, like .dll or something) running in the background which disables any software's ability to seek ATIP. In other words, emulation is still active hehe...
But there is a simpler, FAR simpler alternative which should allow you to do without such emulation and spare the extra mem used to this effect:
DON'T RUN YOUR BACKUP IN A CD-WRITER! :p
Indeed CD/DVD-readers can't read ATIP, only burners can do that. So if U run your backup in a CD-reader, the game won't be able to tell between CD-ROM and CD-R, regardless of whether an emulation is running or not.
By the way, I didn't know safedisk checks ATIP - this must be but a recent feature (safedisk 2.8 & later)
As I C, Alcohol doesn't support pregap reading - the losers :D . In case you do run into a pregap prob, apart from Discjuggler (expen$ive) and Blindwrite (fickle...), Discdump also supports pregap reading, and it's freeware!! In fact, for all non-hardware protection (ie. schemes other than Securom 4.8+ and Starforce 1/2/3), it is said that nothing beats the Discdump/Fireburner combo
Burn what can't be burnt, Liteon rulez!!!
There are 10 types of people in this world - those who understand binary and those who don't
I checked all my background services, and startup - nothing new. This ATIP thing is hidden by editing registry settings, I am sure.
How can a program tell whether the CD is a CD-R or CD-ROM? (I guess the metal and plastic thing comes in now)
Also, Alcohol Development said that pre-gap is not the only way to get things done, they are using another way which works!
They say it does read pre-gap in a way, maybe not like other programs.
Yeah, ALcohol or any other thing like IMAPI is NOT an active service on my machine, I tweaked it for gaming, so I only have 8 CRUCIAL services, none are related to Alcohol or any emulation. I got nothing in my startup.
Yeah, I surely can run a CD in my DVD-ROM, its just that I thought that if a CD-RW cannot read it - its screwed!
IceBreaker
07-08-2003, 17:44
I checked all my background services, and startup - nothing new. This ATIP thing is hidden by editing registry settings, I am sure.
Not everything shows up in the services list (ie. loaded DLLs). 4 example, if you set one Virtual drive in Alcohol - and even mount an image - and exit Alcohol, this drive will be available in Windows without having to run Alcohol and without your being able to find anything in the taskbar/services list!!!
How can a program tell whether the CD is a CD-R or CD-ROM?
You just said it in your previous post: the prog simply reads the ATIP (if CD is in a burner). ATIP contains information on CD media type, etc... Quite simple in fact, there is no need for a built-in subatomic particle-analyser or whatever to check metal/plastic :D :D :D
They say it does read pre-gap in a way, maybe not like other programs.
The Alcohol guy who told U that must have been at the bottle all right :D . There is no such thing as reading data 'in a way' - either it is read 1:1, or it is not. Simple, non?
So, how is that I made a 1:1 copy (or maybe just a working copy?) without pre-gap reading if there was one that is crucial?
Also, you are telling me that ATIP detects what kind of media is being used - so, how does it know what kind of media is used if there is no analyzer???
It was not the Alcohol guy who told me that Alcohol read pre-gap, it was someone else, the Alcohol guy (they all must be drunk...) told me "Yes, pre-gap is a solution, but it is not a great solution, Why? Becuase not all drives can read it. Alcohol Development chose a different solution for this, that works fine with SafeDisc protected games including the latest version of SafeDisc."
IceBreaker
07-08-2003, 18:07
The copy you previously made wuz just a WORKING copy, pregap is not needed if U run your backup in a drive that can't read pregap.
As 4 ATIP you may have misunderstood: ATIP IS data, present on the CD (at the very beginning of it in fact). This data consists of media type (tells whether media is a CD-R or CD-RW), maximum allowed write speed, CD size , etc... Of course this data is read-only and cannot be modified (ie burning on a CD-R or CD-RW won't change ATIP, which makes sense...). ATIP is written (probably pressed) on the media during factory manufacturing. Of course, the burner, upon insertion of a CD, "trusts" the content of the ATIP. If an unscrupulous manufacturer makes a 4X CD-R but indicates '8X' and 'CD-RW'-type on its ATIP, the burner will think that it can rewrite on the CD-R, and write at 8X!!! This sort of rip-off is not uncommon when it comes to generic/low-end media of doubtful quality found on the market. It's a big cruel world out there U know...:(
OK, and NOW, I found something Alcohol guys will have trouble explaining.
I did use BlindWrite 4.5.4 (latest) to reburn BF1942, AND it worked. ATIP did not have to be HIDDEN for the copy to work in my CD-RW, but the Alcohol version wanted ATIP hidden!
Makes me wonder...:D
BTW - do you ever read your PMs?
WOAH! Took them a few seconds, and they came up with an anwer!
"This is because blindwrite was probably installed (or was installed) on the computers you are testing out. You should check for pcatip.sys in C:\windows\system32\drivers.
Blindwrite uses something called autoplay, which tells its driver to hide atip. In both alcohol and blindwrite, you require some external program to be installed. "
PCATIP.SYS is present where they say it would...
IceBreaker
07-08-2003, 18:15
Originally posted by Machina
...
Alcohol Development chose a different solution for this, that works fine with SafeDisc protected games including the latest version of SafeDisc."
Sure, but nothing beats the immense satisfaction of having made a 1:1 copy when possible, right ? ;)
I did use BlindWrite 4.5.4 (latest) to reburn BF1942, AND it worked. ATIP did not have to be HIDDEN for the copy to work in my CD-RW, but the Alcohol version wanted ATIP hidden!
Makes me wonder...
Me too, for this is way beyond my scope... :(
BTW - do you ever read your PMs?
I seldom do, but I just did - and replied :cool:
LOL, well read up, I already posted and answered why BlindWrite works!
IceBreaker
07-08-2003, 18:19
...
Blindwrite uses something called autoplay, which tells its driver to hide atip. In both alcohol and blindwrite, you require some external program to be installed.
So I wuz right hehe :cool: : there IS some "sort of" program loaded in memory, such is the case in all dynamic emulations...
The fact is the the ORIGINAL copy of the game DOES work from a burner WITHOUT any external software!
If a 1:1 copy cannot function the same, its no way 1:1, but I guess we are talking who defines what 1:1 is...
A working copy, even not a 1:1 is fine for me!
Anyway, thanks for support guys - great tool!
So, there is no way to make a 1:1 backup of BF1942, that would be 101% same as the original CD!
Yeah, that makes me feel bad about something loaded into memory, I might uninstall BlindWrite, I want my extra Kb in RAM, even though I got 512Mb of it :rolleyes: .
IceBreaker
07-08-2003, 18:37
The fact is the the ORIGINAL copy of the game DOES work from a burner WITHOUT any external software!
...
Big surprise... :D :D :D
That's the least one can expect, non?
Originally posted by Machina
...
So, there is no way to make a 1:1 backup of BF1942, that would be 101% same as the original CD!
But there IS !!!!!!!!!!!!!
As I said before, all U need is:
- a reader capable of reading pregap - 'tis the case with the Litey 52246S
- a software that can handle it: BW,Discdump,...
...
Yeah, that makes me feel bad about something loaded into memory, I might uninstall BlindWrite, I want my extra Kb in RAM, even though I got 512Mb of it
Don't uninstall BW, sacrebleu :mad: ! It CAN backup safedisk 2.8 1:1 and thus U won't need any emulator
Besides, even if I do like to make 1:1 copies (a question of complacency, or pride perhaps arf arf :D ), I prefer to mount an image on a virtual drive & run the game - spares the hassle of having to insert CD.
I use NO-CD cracks for that, thats why I am in this forum!
Well, as I said, I DID make an imagine with BlindRead and burnt it with BlindWrite, but the only reason it works is BECAUSE there is a file that runs in the memory, etc!
Once you have BlindWrite installed, almost any game will work, it loads that .sys file!
IceBreaker
07-08-2003, 19:00
That .sys file only deals with the ATIP issue, Blindwrite does NOT have built-in active emulators (weak sector emulation, physical media info, Laserlock emulation, pregap emulation, etc...)
So your backup really IS 1:1, and if it works in your burner it is not only because the .sys file hides the ATIP, but also because the original pregap of the CD-ROM was successfully copied by BW.
To confirm this, you can uninstall Blindwrite and launch the game after inserting your backup in a reader (not burner, cf. ATIP!) that can read pregap (ie. recent Liteon DVD-readers?), so that the game can check for pregap: you will see that with the BW-made backup, the game will still work, even though the BW .sys file is absent...
No, see, what I am saying that a PERFECT BACKUP would work JUST as good in a burner as the ORIGINAL COPY!
But, it does NOT, even with BlindWrite copy, WHEN IT IS UNINSTALLED and that .sys file is destroyed.
That makes the copy a NOT PERFECT COPY!
IceBreaker
07-08-2003, 19:06
Now that's strange indeed, if true :confused:
Have you tried (with BW uninstalled of cos') running the BW-backup in a reader (not a burner)? It should work, normally...
Yes, it works in a normal reader, I don't know anyone who has a pre-gap reader :( , only burner.
So, my point is, there is no such thing as a PERFECT 1:1 copy with SafeDisk that can read ATIP.
If you won't hide ATIP - a burner will NOT read a "perfect" copy (if there is no external emulation), YET it WILL read an ORIGINAL CD!
Unless, they make SPECIAL CD-Rs that have some special ATIP recognition, or something...
BTW< BW leaves the .sys file and it is still being used EVEN if its uninstalled, it has to be manually deleted. Then, suddenly, a BW copy won't work in my burner.
IceBreaker
07-08-2003, 19:22
...
there is no such thing as a PERFECT 1:1 copy
...
This is obvious: actually, what I mean by '1:1 copy' is an exact copy except of course for the ATIP, which is read-only. Thus a CD-R(W) will always be a CD-R(W) :p So even a 1:1 copy won't work in a burner without a background 'ATIP-hiding' prog...
A burner capable of writing into the 'ATIP' area of a CD-R so as to fake it (ie. mark a CD-R as a CD-ROM) would be a most interesting idea indeed, however this would call for perfectly blank CD-Rs, ie. without even an ATIP - such media are not available as yet, at least for the average user...
BTW< BW leaves the .sys file and it is still being used EVEN if its uninstalled, it has to be manually deleted. Then, suddenly, a BW copy won't work in my burner.
Thx 4 the info, for I never knew that - so uninstalling BW does not remove it completely. Interesting indeed...
LOL, a lot of stuff is being left behind after uninstallation, thats why there are RegCleaner and EasyCleaner and other "cleaners"!
IceBreaker
07-08-2003, 19:31
I know - in fact, reg cleaners are often insufficient, that's why I often use a FILE/REGISTRY TRACER such as 'Installwatch Basic' (freeware) that runs in the background during installation/uninstallation, especially when installing shareware, which often add "secret" entries into the registry - a sh*tload of 'em sometimes - which are left behind even after program removal.
I hate such sticky progs grrr :mad:
Yeap, well thanks for support! We both learnt a few things!
I am off creating CD-Rs and CD-RWs without ATIP, and patenting them :D .
IceBreaker
07-08-2003, 19:50
Good luck :D
PS don't forget the burners that can write on 'em hehe... ;)
gh0sth@cker
08-08-2003, 02:35
Just to clear up on the ATIP discussion...
It's not relatively new - it was first introduced around Safedisk 2.4 if I remember.
Pressed CD's (originals) do not have an ATIP. An ATIP is only on CD-R's as it is needed by the burner to find out the dye type, manufacturer, length etc before burning. Pressed cd's dont require to have an ATIP and don't have one.
Thus Safedisk does a simple check during loading for an ATIP - if present it shows you the door.
It's only a secondary protection of course due to it only being effective in burners.
ATIP checking can also be found in Securom games.
IceBreaker
08-08-2003, 03:05
OK Ghost thx for the info. CD-ROMs not having ATIP makes sense, too, their content being read-only :D
Never would have thought safedisk 2+ verified the ATIP too. I remember my 'Serious Sam 2' (safedisk 2.51) running OK in my burner - unless as previously mentionned it had to do with the Blindwrite installation and that .sys file being loaded in memory, hiding the ATIP. If so, only 1 way to check out: uninstall BW, delete this file & attempt 2 run SS2 with the backup in the burner.
Bah, it ain't worth the hassle... :D :D
:( :( :( :mad: That was a good and intersting conversation, its over now, I feel bad...
IceBreaker
08-08-2003, 16:18
Roger, good-bye & good night...
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